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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 1 of 716 (703566)
07-25-2013 1:47 AM


Bs'd
The Christian messiah did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
I think this is a clear indication that he was not the messiah.
Here some examples:
Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do. .......
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
.
Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 3:44 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2013 10:12 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 8 by jar, posted 07-25-2013 10:39 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 54 by kofh2u, posted 07-27-2013 2:16 PM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 345 by Davidjay, posted 04-08-2017 10:05 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 4 of 716 (703576)
07-25-2013 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
07-25-2013 3:44 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
Bs'd
How can I reply here with quote of previous message?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 3:44 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 07-25-2013 9:57 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 9 of 716 (703588)
07-25-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
07-25-2013 3:44 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
quote:
The scriptures do in fact indicate two comings of Christ if you know how to read them properly. Even some Jewish commentators find two different Messiahs in the Hebrew scriptures, the Suffering Servant
Bs'd
There is no "suffering and dying messiah" in the Tanach.
quote:
and the Warrior King, ben Joseph and ben David being the names they assigned these two anointed ones I think though I may not remember the names rightly. And some even considered that there might be three Messiahs. This is because the scriptures present different portraits of Him. (A book on Jewish Messianic teachings by Raphael Patai, a nonChristian Jew, is my main source for this information).
But nowhere is more than one Messiah ever hinted at in the scriptures.
The scriptures are full of messiah's. You just have to know what is a messiah:
Messiah comes from the Hebrew word 'meshiach' which means 'anointed one' It was the custom to anoint kings with oil before they came to power. There were already many anointed kings in Jewish history. Read for instance I Samuel 9:27 to10:1; Here Saul is anointed by Samuel the prophet. And thereby he became a messiah, an anointed one, See Samuel 11:13 up to 12:3: Here in verse 3 king Saul is called G.ds anointed, in the Hebrew 'meshiach'. So also king Saul was a messiah. Look in I Samuel 16:12-13, here the prophet Samuel anoints David, the Hebrew verb for anointing is 'mashach', and he becomes an anointed one, as we can read in II Samuel 23:1; "David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (in the Hebrew 'meshiach') of the G.d of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said; "
I Kings 1:39; "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Hebrew verb 'mashach') Solomon. And they blew the trumpet, and all the people said; G.d save king Solomon." Also Solomon was an anointed one, or messiah: II Chronicles 6:42, here king Solomon prays: "O Lord turn not away the face of thine anointed, " In the Hebrew: 'meshiach'.
So now we know what is a messiah: An anointed king.
And there were many of those in history.
Eliyahu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 3:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 12:40 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 12 of 716 (703598)
07-25-2013 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
07-25-2013 12:40 PM


One messiah and one comming
quote:
Isaiah 52 and 53. And I'll have to see if I can find a Jewish commentary that views those passages as related to the Messiah but I won't be able to do that until later.
Bs'd
I don't want to see Jewish commentators who view those passages as speaking about the messiah.
What I want is solid arguments based not on commentators, but on the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
Giving comments is something we all can and do. The value of that hovers around zero.
quote:
Yes, I'm quite aware of how the term "Messiah" is derived, so that there are many "messiahs" in that small sense, but don't be so disingenuous as to try to deny that the Hebrew scriptures point to one particular Messiah, THE Anointed One of God. Orthodox Jews believe He is yet to come, no? We believe He came 2000 years ago and will come another time.
Yes, we believe that THE messiah is still to come, and there will be only ONE of him.
And we'll know he is the messiah, by the fact that he is going to fulfill the messianic prophecies, something in which JC failed.
Eliyahu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 12:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2013 5:33 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 4:33 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 14 of 716 (703611)
07-26-2013 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
07-25-2013 5:33 PM


Re: One messiah and one comming
quote:
My impression is that the Tanakh does not actually speak of The Messiah as such. Rather, The Messiah is a title applied to someone who will fulfil a number of prophecies, notably ruling over a restored Israel which will be acknowledged as God's chosen kingdom.
Bs'd
That's about it.
quote:
Accordingly any claim that any other prophecy is Messianic needs to show that it applies to the same person. Even the title messiah is insufficient, since there are any number of messiahs (the Persian emperor Cyrus being a significant example - Isaiah 45:1)
According to Christianity, the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 and the last verses of chapter 52, from verse 13, are talking about Jesus. Why do they think so? Because the NT says so, and because it fits so nicely with the Christian story about a suffering messiah. And what proof do the Christians have that the subject in Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, is the messiah?
Nothing.
There is not the slightest indication, let alone a proof, that the servant of God, mentioned in Isaiah 53, is the messiah.
In the authentic messianic prophecies there is always a sign that it talks about the messiah, the anointed king. ("messiah" means "anointed one") In the real messianic prophecies it speaks about a king, or about a ruler, or about a descendend of David, or about a descendend of Isai, the father of David. But here in Isaiah 53 is nothing like that. Also the word "messiah" is not used in Isaiah 53. There is not the slightest hint toward a messiah. It just speaks about the servant of God. And NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Hebrew Bible, is the messiah ever referred to as "the servant of God". So Christianity is making up fairy tales here.
quote:
To answer the question in the OP, in my view the followers of Jesus started with the conviction that Jesus was The Messiah. When Jesus died some of them dealt with it by becoming more extreme and came up with the idea of the Second Coming to explain away Jesus' failure. This is not to say that they did not believe it - they did. But that doesn't make it anything more than a way of hiding from the truth.
That's probably the gist of it.
Eliyahu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2013 5:33 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 17 of 716 (703614)
07-26-2013 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-26-2013 4:33 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
quote:
quote:
I don't want to see Jewish commentators who view those passages as speaking about the messiah.
What I want is solid arguments based not on commentators, but on the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
Possibly we can do both.
Bs'd
Apperently not, because I have not seen any evidence from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 should speak about the messiah.
quote:
There are other passages in Isaiah that are understood to be messianic and are about the Suffering Servant:
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
The strongest proof for the servant being the people of Israel is Isaiah 42. This is also claimed by the NT as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 12:16-21; "And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."
This is a quote from Isaiah 42, applied by the NT to JC. Now read here the whole chapter of Isaiah 42 and see that it speaks all the time about the servant of God, see who is that servant of God, and see that it does not speak about the messiah:
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands. The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies. I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once. I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods. Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."
As you see, saying JC was the servant doesn't fit very well: "Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not."
According to the NT Jesus was not blind and deaf.
Conclusion: JC is not the servant.
Conclusion: The NT is based upon false premises.
It is here literally spelled out who is the servant that Isaiah talks about: "Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"
Where it says "But this is a people", (some translations say: But it is a people), there it says in the original Hebrew: we-hu am bazuz. That is literally translated: "And HE is a robbed nation/people." The 'he' refers to the servant in the previous verse. The following verses identify that nation as the people of Israel: "Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"
We see here that in Isaiah 41:8-9, that is only twenty verses before the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claims that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL: " But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you: You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off"
We also see that in Isaiah 42:18-25, only fourteen verses after the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL.
So we see that the Christian claim is based upon nothing, and goes against the context and against the plain text of Isaiah.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 4:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:23 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 18 of 716 (703615)
07-26-2013 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-26-2013 4:33 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
quote:
The writings of the various Jewish interpretations of the scriptures ought to go some way toward showing that it isn't only the New Testament (whose writers are almost all Jews anyway) but many nonChristian Jews who find those passages to be messianic. That may not be proof but then how do you prove something that's a matter of interpretation anyway? The fact that it is shared by many serious Jewish interpreters of the scriptures ought to carry a great deal of weight.
Bs'd
It looks to me, that what you are trying to say here, is that you cannot bring any proof from Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach, that the suffering servant is the messiah.
So, just like I said, the Christians don't have the slightest shred of Biblical evidence, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
So why should anybody take the Christian claims seriously??
.
.
.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 4:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 10:58 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:28 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 07-27-2013 3:26 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 19 of 716 (703618)
07-26-2013 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 10:04 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant is NOT the messiah
Bs'd
THIS is Biblical proof for a point of view:
Let us now take a look about who the prophet Isaiah is really talking here. Isaiah 52:13; Behold My servant shall deal prudently . The key question here is: Who is it that the prophet Isaiah calls the servant of God? We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:
Isaiah 41:8: But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
Isaiah 44:1-2; Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.
Isaiah 44:21; Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; O Israel thou shalt not be forgotten of me
Isaiah 45:4; For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.
Isaiah 48:20; The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.
Isaiah 49:3; And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
The servant that Isaiah is talking about is the people of Israel.
And there is a lot more where this came from, but in the above examples you can catch it neatly in one sentence.
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 10:04 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 11:49 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 20 of 716 (703619)
07-26-2013 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 10:58 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant is NOT the messiah
Bs'd
Another interesting question: When Isaiah is talking about the servant of God, is he then talking about God Himself, or about somebody else?
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 10:58 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 21 of 716 (703620)
07-26-2013 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
07-25-2013 9:57 AM


Re: Posting Tips
quote:
I've stolen a nice thing one of the other posters here generally shows to new comers when he sees them:
... as you are new here, some posting tips:
type
quotes are easy
and it becomes:
quotes are easy
or type
quote:
quotes are easy
and it becomes:
quote:quotes are easy
also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window.
For other formatting tips see Posting Tips
For a quick overview see EvC Forum Primer
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Welcome to EvC, it's a good time here. We don't have any lemonade to give you, though...
Bs'd
Thanks for the info.
I think I'm getting the hang of it.
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 07-25-2013 9:57 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 46 of 716 (703684)
07-27-2013 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:20 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Because it says it's about the Messiah.
Bs'd
Maybe you can enlighten me, and tell me WHERE it says it speaks about the messiah?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 47 of 716 (703685)
07-27-2013 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:23 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
It would be nice if you would at least acknowledge that Christians didn't make up the messianic meaning of the Suffering Servant passages if such nonChristian sources as the Babylonian Talmud and so many others also view it as messianic.
Bs'd
It isn't messianic, and the Talmud doesn't view it as messianic:
Do the rabbis say that Isaiah 53 is messianic?
No; they do not.
Christianity is unable to prove from the Biblical text of Isaiah 53 that the servant of God, whom the text describes, is a messianic figure. The text does not speak about a king or a ruler, nowhere is spoken about a descendent of David or Jesse, and the word ‘messiah’ is nowhere used in Isaiah 53. Since this is the only text Christianity has to back up their fairy tale of a suffering and dying messiah, they grasp at straws. They claim that the Jewish understanding of this text was always that it speaks about the messiah. Since they cannot come up with any scriptural proof, they bring the ancient rabbinic writings as proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. Christianity goes rabbinic. It used to be only messianic Jews coming with the ancient rabbis in order to make their point, but now also mainstream Christianity is falling back upon the rabbis in order to prove that JC was the messiah. This is about the same as butchers calling upon vegetarians in order to prove that eating meat is very healthy. The reason for this absurd behavior is very simple: The Christians have nothing better.
But what Christianity does here is applying the same tactic which the NT writers displayed: They take a piece of text, rip it out of context, and misrepresent it. In order to understand what is going on in books like the Talmud and Midrash you need to have been thoroughly taught by rabbis in a yeshiva. Because of the fact that Christians have no idea what is flying when they read those books they come to wrong conclusions.
An example of this is to be found on this site: http://www.mayimhayim.org/Poetry/Isaiah%2053.htm
They bring there the following passage from the Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)
Now their claim is that the Talmud here says that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. However, that claim is wrong. What the rabbis from the Talmud do here is making an asmachta. An asmachta is a mnemonic device, invented by the rabbis, and it does NOT give over the plain meaning of the Biblical text.
Here is another example of it: Babylonian Talmud tractate Sotah 14a: "R. Simlai expounded: Why did Moses our teacher yearn to enter the land of Israel? Did he want to eat of its fruits or satisfy himself from its bounty? But thus spoke Moses, 'Many precepts were commanded to Israel which can only be fulfilled in the land of Israel. I wish to enter the land so that they may all be fulfilled by me'. The Holy One, blessed be He, said to him, 'Is it only to receive the reward for obeying the commandments that thou seekest? I ascribe it to thee as if thou didst perform them as it is said: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors, yet he bare the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. This is a quote from Isaiah 53.
Does the Talmud now think that Isaiah 53 is speaking about Moses? Of course not. The text of Isaiah is only referred to in order to give an example. Just like the Talmud doesn’t believe that Isaiah 53 speaks about Moses, the same way the Talmud doesn’t claim it speaks about the messiah. Here are a few more examples of the Talmudic rabbis making an asmachta:
Babylonian Talmud, Brachot 57b: "Six things are a good sign for a sick person, namely, sneezing, perspiration, open bowels, seminal emission, sleep and a dream. Sneezing, as it is written: 'His sneezings flash forth light'. (Job 41.10) Perspiration, as it is written: 'In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread'. (Gen 3.19) Open bowels, as it is written: 'If lie that is bent down hasteneth to be loosed, he shall not go down dying to the pit'. (Is 51.14) Seminal emission, as it is written: 'Seeing seed, he will prolong his days'. (Is 53.10) Sleep, as it is written:' I should have slept, then should I have been at rest'. (Job 3.13) A dream, as it is written: 'Thou didst cause me to dream and make me to live'. (Is 38.16)
Does anybody in his right mind now think that the Talmud claims that Isaiah 53 speaks about a sick person having a seminal emission? Also from the other texts brought by the Talmud it is clear that the texts referred to by the Talmud are not claimed to be talking about the subject under discussion; a sick person. So also when the Talmud speaks about the messiah, and then refers to Isaiah 53, saying: As it is written etc., then the Talmud does not claim that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
In the back of tractate Brachot of the Babylonian Talmud, on page 90-91 of the counting of the mepharshim, rabbenu Shimshon Mekutsih gives the rules according which we learn the Talmud. There is written under the heading Hagada (stories) Hagada, that is all the explanation that comes in the Talmud on any subject that is not a commandment. This is hagada. You are not to learn from it except for that what comes up on your mind. And you must know that all that the rabbis established concerning the practical execution of the commandments, comes from the mouth of Moses our rabbi, peace be upon him, which he received from the mouth of the Mighty One. We are not to add or subtract from it. And what each one explained from the verses like it appeared to him, and like he saw it in his understanding, and according to what came up on his understanding from the explanations, these we learn, and we don’t rely on the rest.
Everything written in the Talmud that expounds the 613 commandments, given by God to the Jewish people through Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, that is what we rely upon and study diligently. Everything else in the Talmud that does not speak about the 613 commandments, that is hagada, stories. About that is written above: We don’t rely on the rest.
So if anybody is not convinced about the concept of asmachta, and wants to think that the Talmud says that Isaiah 53 speaks about Moses, or a sick person who has a seminal emission, or about the messiah, then he should read the last words again about how to read the stories in the Talmud which do not refer to the law: We don’t rely on the rest. The same holds true for the Midrash. You can not take a piece of Midrash and say that it is an absolute truth. In the middle ages, in 1263 CE, the Jewish sage rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, aka the Ramban, was forced to defend Judaism against the Christian religion by King James of Aragonia, in Barcelona. The king attended every session of the dispute, and regularly joined in on the Christian side. Afterwards the king considered the Ramban the winner of the dispute, and he rewarded him with 300 gold coins. But when the Ramban published the disputation in writing, he barely escaped execution and was exiled. During the disputation his opponent, a Jewish convert to Christianity, brought a Midrash in which it is written that at the time when the Temple was destroyed, the messiah was born. Upon this the Ramban answered: "We have three kind of books: The first is the Bible, (the Only Testament) and all of us believe in it in perfect faith. The second is what is called the Talmud, which is the commentary on the commandments of the Torah. There are 613 commandments in the Torah, and there is not one of them which is not explained in the Talmud. We firmly believe in the Talmud's explanations of the commandments. We have a third book called Midrash, meaning "sermons". It is just as if the bishop would rise and deliver a sermon, and one of the listeners whom the sermon pleased recorded it. With regard to this book of sermons, if one believes in it; it is well and good, and if one does not believe in it, no harm will come to him. We have sages who wrote that the messiah will not be born until the time near the end, at which time he will come to redeem us from the exile. Therefore, I do not believe the statement of this book that he was born on the day of the destruction of the Temple. We also call the Midrash the book of hagada, that is to say, it is nothing more than matters which one person tells another." Until here the quote of the big Jewish sage the Ramban.
The Ramban didn't believe in the literal statements of the Midrash. The Midrash contains stories, parables, which teach high morals and wise lessons, and we learn the lessons it teaches us, but also here you can not take every statement as a literal truth.
The Ramban said "We have three kind of books. The first is the Bible, and all of us believe in it in perfect faith." That is the highest authority, the Hebrew Bible. Every religious Jew believes in it with perfect faith.
The Midrash: "It is just as if the bishop would rise and deliver a sermon, and one of the listeners whom the sermon pleased recorded it. With regard to this book of sermons, if one believes in it; it is well and good, and if one does not believe in it, no harm will come to him". Simple and plain. Therefore no commentary can push aside the plain literal meaning of the Hebrew Bible, no matter whether that commentary comes from the Talmud, Midrash, or whatever. Therefore, when all through Isaiah the servant of God is the identified as the Jewish people, then also in Isaiah 53 the servant is the Jewish people.
But many times the Biblical text has deeper levels of meaning. There are altogether four levels of understanding the Bible. The first one is the 'pshat', that is the plain literal meaning. That is what tells us in Isaiah 53 that the servant is the people of Israel.
The second level is 'remez'. That means hint, allusion. The text might hint to different things than described in the text.
Then there is 'drash'. That is what is understood from the text by applying the thirteen hermeneutical rules given by God to Moses at Sinai.
And the last one is 'sod', meaning secret. This points to the secrets in the text.
The Jewish sages explain the Bible on all levels, therefore sometimes explanations come up which might seem to be out of place, or contradictory, but those are then explanations on different, deeper, levels.
HOWEVER, no matter what might be derived from a text on different levels, the plain literal meaning of a Biblical text can never be erased.
Summarizing we can conclude:
The rabbis from the Talmud did not say that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
From the other Jewish writings you can not rip a text out of context and present it as the absolute truth.
Nothing in Isaiah 53 points to a messiah, and the servant in Isaiah is many times identified as the Jewish people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:23 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2013 1:17 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 48 of 716 (703686)
07-27-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:28 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Perhaps I will go through some of the passages later to explain what's so clearly messianic about them. Meanwhile it ought to carry some weight that many great spiritual men down the centuries knew them to be messianic.
Bs'd
the most weight carries Isaiah, who says it is about ISRAEL.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 49 of 716 (703687)
07-27-2013 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:49 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Bs'd
Daniel 9 does not speak about THE messiah.
It speaks about TWO (2) other messiahs.
For the finer details look here: Daniel9 - MountZion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by kofh2u, posted 07-27-2013 2:22 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2376 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 50 of 716 (703689)
07-27-2013 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
07-26-2013 6:26 PM


Re: Daniel 9
Also, wherever a "Messiah" is spoken of by that title alone, without giving the identity of the one anointed -- such as Saul or David or Solomon and so on -- it is understood to refer to THE Messiah promised and prophesied down the centuries from Eden, who will save the people from their sins.
Bs'd
Where can I find that idea in the Tanach?
The fact that there are many ordinary messiahs is irrelevant and a red herring, since all the anointed ones but THE Anointed One are clearly identified.
Nowhere in Daniel 9 is spoken about THE messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 6:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
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