Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 48 (9179 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,236 Year: 5,493/9,624 Month: 518/323 Week: 15/143 Day: 5/10 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 156 of 716 (717601)
01-29-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Eliyahu
01-29-2014 1:21 PM


Eliyahu writes:
In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1
Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works? But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom! Are they still around today? Even Methuselah didn't live that long!
From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?
Well in part yes. Firstly the "Son of Man" reference goes to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man" is being presented to the Ancient of Days. That coming is a heavenly vision and not an earthly one. However, it goes on to say that the "Son of Man" will be given dominion over an everlasting Kingdom that will be established in an earthly setting and extend beyond time to eternity. Christ's Kingdom or His church now exists throughout the world, and was established in the life times of those Jesus was speaking to.
AbE I just thought I'd add that I realize this is not going to convince you of anything but I do want to give you the Christian POV.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Eliyahu, posted 01-29-2014 1:21 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Eliyahu, posted 01-30-2014 2:02 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 158 of 716 (717651)
01-30-2014 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Eliyahu
01-30-2014 2:02 AM


Eliyahu writes:
So the fact remains that JC was a false prophet.
Not at all. They were looking for a warrior king but Jesus' point that the enemy was evil itself and that the weapon to be used against evil is love. They were looking for a messiah to rebuild the Temple but Jesus said that the Temple was being rebuilt in Him and in the hearts of His followers.
In other words He fulfilled the prophesies but not in the way that they had expected.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Eliyahu, posted 01-30-2014 2:02 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Eliyahu, posted 02-01-2014 11:49 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 160 of 716 (717869)
02-02-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Eliyahu
02-01-2014 11:49 PM


Eliyahu writes:
The reason they were looking for a warrior king, is because the Hebrew prophets say the messiah is going to be a warrior king.
That was their assumption based on their world view of how the enemy was to be defeated.
Eliyahu writes:
If he really was the messiah, then he should have fulfilled the messianic prophecies, and not come with love and brotherhood stories.
He fulfilled the prophesies by coming with love and brotherhood. That was the way the enemy, (evil), was to be defeated.
Eliyahu writes:
And we all know, no Temple is being built in any hearts, so also in that aspect he failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Well, we don't all know that. The Temple was the place where God was suppose to dwell, or where God was incarnate. Essentially that was foreshadowing of the Word of God incarnate in Jesus.
Eliyahu writes:
The messianic prophecies also say that the messiah must make an end to war, and save the Jews from the oppression of their enemies, JC failed on all accounts.
Bringing some vague stories about Temples in hearts, love and understanding, is in no way fulfilling the messianic prophecies.
Talking is cheap. Fulfilling the messianic prophecies is a whole different ball game.
Ok. We now have nearly 2000 years of recorded history. In that time the "Kingdom of God" as announced by Jesus has been spread word wide and even though it has had a very spotty record it has also led in huge advances in civilization.
Your version has still not seen a messiah. I don't have to tell you about what has happened to the Temple and Israel exists because of the politics of gentile countries and is a secular state. Just what of the prophesies as you understand them has been fulfilled?
I don't mean this to sound confrontational. Essentially I see Christianity as largely Jewish. I realize that Jesus knew that what He was doing was going to be divisive, (mind you there already were many divisions within the ranks of the Jews of that day ), but I don't think that He would have imagined that there would be a separate church. Jesus was a Jew in a Jewish culture. He lived His life in that culture, and of all of His initial followers were Jewish. We're all brothers who have a bit of a disagreement over our historical roots. It does all boil down to what we believe about the resurrection.
Edited by GDR, : typo

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Eliyahu, posted 02-01-2014 11:49 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Eliyahu, posted 02-02-2014 12:52 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 162 of 716 (718003)
02-03-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Eliyahu
02-02-2014 12:52 PM


Eliyahu writes:
It boils down to what we believe about serving God.
The Jews serve God by fulfilling His commandments and upkeeping His law.
The Christians think they are serving God while they threw overboard all Gods commandments and replaced them with paganism.
This is based on your misconceptions of Christianity. Jesus taught that we are to keep the commandments, not because by keeping them that we will have God on our side, but because they are written on our hearts and that we find joy in keeping them.
That teaching is completely consistent with Torah.
This is from Matthew 22.
quote:
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Jesus is referring back to Dt 6.
quote:
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.
and Lev 19.
quote:
18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Again, it is all about the heart.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Eliyahu, posted 02-02-2014 12:52 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 167 of 716 (787688)
07-20-2016 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Eliyahu
07-19-2016 6:57 AM


Re: Daniel 9
Eliyahu writes:
I think that by now it is quite clear that JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies, so it should also be quite clear that he was NOT the messiah.
I think that by now it is quite clear that JC DID fulfill the messianic prophecies, so it should also be quite clear that he WAS the messiah.
You have been shown how he defeated the enemy, (evil), and how he rebuilt the temple, not as a building, but in the hearts of those that are followers of His message of loving others as we love ourselves.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Eliyahu, posted 07-19-2016 6:57 AM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 07-21-2016 12:05 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 169 of 716 (787763)
07-21-2016 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by ringo
07-21-2016 12:05 PM


Re: Daniel 9
ringo writes:
So he built a metaphor, not a temple.
Yes and no. For the Jews the Temple was where one could go to meet with God, or in other words the Temple was where God 's world or dimension overlapped with our world or dimension. Jesus said that the overlap occurred in the hearts of those that had faith in His message of loving others as they loved themselves, and went further in saying that the temple had been corrupted..

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 07-21-2016 12:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 11:40 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 173 of 716 (787837)
07-22-2016 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by ringo
07-22-2016 11:40 AM


Temple
ringo writes:
And yet the Jews don't accept Jesus as "the Temple" - so you can't use their concept of the Temple to back up your claim.
Some Jews did and some didn't. I don't believe that Jesus ever did see the Christian Church evolving the way it did. I think that He understood that what He was doing was the fulfillment of the Israel story, that involved the return of Yahweh to His people which Jesus embodied as the Jewish messiah.
It is what separates the beliefs of Jews and Christians today as it did then.
ringo writes:
Which has nothing to do with Him being the Messiah.
One of the things the messiah was supposed to do was to rebuild the temple. The temple was by Jewish custom the place where God could be found. Jesus' claim was that He was the place where God was to be found. In other words Jesus was redefining the idea of Temple.
This is from John 2
quote:
18 The Jews then responded to him, What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this? 19 Jesus answered them, Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days. 20 They replied, It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days? 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
This is from Paul 1st letter to the Corinthians chap 3:
quote:
16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
In other words Jesus did rebuild the temple but it was in people's hearts, thus fulfilling the messianic mission.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 07-23-2016 11:49 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 181 of 716 (787928)
07-23-2016 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by ringo
07-23-2016 11:49 AM


Re: Temple
ringo writes:
Well, according to your quotes it was the epistle writers who were redefining the idea of Temple - and they were doing it after Jesus had already died and failed to fulfill the requirements to be the Messiah.
One quote was from a gospel, however that understanding is also taken from the general context of the entirety of the NT. It was Jesus who redefined how establishing the Kingdom and the rebuilding of the Temple was to be accomplished.
ringo writes:
Was Napoleon the Anti-Christ? Let's just redefine Anti-Christ to fit Napoleon.
Fine if you want to believe in a literal anti-christ.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 07-23-2016 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 07-24-2016 10:41 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 07-24-2016 2:18 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 198 of 716 (788001)
07-24-2016 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by ringo
07-24-2016 2:18 PM


Re: Temple
ringo writes:
So Jesus redefined the prophecies to point to Himself. Is that self-serving at all?
Hardly. He understood that was His God given vocation and a vocation that would lead to his death. What He was called to do was upsetting everyone in positions of power and He knew what happened to those who did what He was doing.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 07-24-2016 2:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 07-25-2016 11:35 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 204 of 716 (788070)
07-25-2016 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by ringo
07-25-2016 11:35 AM


Re: Temple
ringo writes:
Your reasoning is circular: He was the Messiah, so he redefined what the Messiah was to suit Himself.
Not really. There was a number of messianic beliefs of which the most popular was the belief that the messiah would be a military leader that would lead them to defeat their enemies. This is consistent with the majority of religious beliefs. The usual idea is how to get your deity on side with what you want him,her, or it to do.
Jesus' understanding however can be found in the Hebrew Scriptures, in passages like the suffering serveant in Isaiah, or even in my signature. Jesus simply understood through study and prayer what God actually had to say through the reading of their scriptures. It wasn't about getting God to serve themselves but about getting them to serve others.
Certainly this wasn't His whole message but it was and is a big part of it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ringo, posted 07-25-2016 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by ringo, posted 07-26-2016 11:48 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 208 of 716 (788168)
07-26-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by ringo
07-26-2016 11:48 AM


Re: Temple
ringo writes:
That's pretty much a separate issue from the Messiah. Jesus taught the Jews how to be better Jews. That doesn't make Him the Messiah.
I tend to agree that Jesus' teachings are a better idea than a military conqueror. But Christians should concentrate on those teachings and let go of the idea of Messiah. He may have been better than the Messiah but he was no Messiah.
No. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Israel story, and as part of that He fulfilled the messianic requirements, but not in the way the majority of Israelites expected.
Incidentally, being the messiah did not in itself deify Jesus. A messiah was simply the anointed one of Yahweh who would redeem Israel. Understanding Jesus as part of the godhead or trinity is another issue which is IMHO best understood in the first chapter of John, (the Word or Wisdom of God became flesh), as well as in Daniel's dream where the "Son of Man" is presented to the Ancient of Days" and given dominion in Daniel 7.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by ringo, posted 07-26-2016 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-26-2016 4:04 PM GDR has replied
 Message 223 by ringo, posted 07-27-2016 3:15 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 214 of 716 (788196)
07-26-2016 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by LamarkNewAge
07-26-2016 4:04 PM


Re: Temple
LamarkNewAge writes:
I still don't understand why an "incarnated son" or "God incarnate" Messiah might have been unknown when there is supposedly all these "fulfilled prophecies".
Something just isn't adding up here.
Why the ignorance of such things in 55 A.D.?
The Israelites were still wanting a god that would do what they wanted. They wanted power in the here and now, and even though they were in the promised land they were still under Roman rule and still in exile. Jesus' message was not about gaining military power but about influencing the enemy with kindness, truth and love. That sold then just about as well as it does today. Further, the message became that God was not just a God for the Jews but for the whole world. It wasn't a message that everyone wanted to hear.
Many believed but many didn't.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-26-2016 4:04 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 10:39 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 221 of 716 (788217)
07-27-2016 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 10:39 AM


Re: Military Conquest or Prince of Peace? re:GDR.
LamrkNewAge writes:
The Septuagint backs up your claim that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy.
The Massorah contradicts your claims.
Call that a split decision.
It is interesting to discuss the ways in which Jesus fulfilled the messianic mission but in the final analysis it isn't really about how we interpret the texts. What is important is God's reaction to the life and message of Jesus. God confirmed and vindicated Jesus by resurrecting Him.
If God hadn't resurrected Jesus then there is no reason to think that any of His followers, (or later on Paul for that matter), would have considered Him any more than just another failed messiah, and we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 10:39 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 225 of 716 (788221)
07-27-2016 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by ringo
07-27-2016 3:15 PM


Re: Temple
ringo writes:
There's little point in a prophecy that's "fulfilled" in an unexpected way. I've predicted that Donald Trump will win the US Presidency; if he doesn't, I can always say it was a "moral" victory - but of course it will really mean that I was wrong.
Once again though it all comes back to the resurrection. If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding. If the resurrection is not true then the whole point is moot anyway.
As I said in my other reply if Jesus wasn't resurrected then He would simply have been another failed messiah and His followers would simply have disappeared back to their fishing etc.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by ringo, posted 07-27-2016 3:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by ringo, posted 07-27-2016 3:52 PM GDR has replied
 Message 227 by Taq, posted 07-27-2016 3:56 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6206
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 245 of 716 (788262)
07-28-2016 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by ringo
07-27-2016 3:52 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding.
ringo writes:
Jesus' self-understanding is irrelevant. A prophecy that nobody can understand before the fact is worthless.
Well we don't actually know whether or not anybody else understood the messianic prophesies the way Jesus did. What we do see in the Gospels are people who understood them in the way that would benefit them. So what? That seems to be a big part of human nature.
The point isn't about what people think they mean. The important part is what God intended. Again, if Jesus is resurrected then we can have confidence that Jesus had it right, and subsequent to that a great many people have come to believe that Jesus got it right.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by ringo, posted 07-27-2016 3:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 07-28-2016 12:47 PM GDR has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024