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Author | Topic: Who & what are the demons ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: Is not what is objectively real and what is not a rather important factor here? yes, and i think you would agree with the following statement:
quote:Thus for you, what is real is only what is provable or "evident" and i can respect that, though im more of a leap of faith subjectivist
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: The question is where this idea of demons comes from and all the objective evidence indicates that they are things invented by humans for reasons that have everything to do with human psychology and nothing to do with the actual existence of real demons. And as one who has had subjective evidence, I dont buy the idea that demons are not real. I dont think the verdict can be issued so easily...at this point.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: Suppose I was standing right beside you when you had your experience and I said, "I think he's faking." Would that shake your faith in demons? Suppose somebody else in the room said, "I think he's mentally ill." Would that shake your faith in demons? If you were in the same room that we were observing what we observed and you said it was fake, it would change my confidence based on the perceptions of myself and others. If more people in the room doubted the event, it would shake my perception of the event being as genuine and undeniable as I saw it with the entire room in agreement. In fact, I would question what I experienced a lot more had there been witnesses who were less sure and/or convinced of the event.
Straggler writes: No. I admit to a bias in favor of my explanation given. Do you have any reason beyond belief to attribute the cause of this experience of yours to demons (or whatever supernatural entity it is you are alluding to)? Edited by Phat, : added quote
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anywayRingo writes: Well....I had to explain the unusual phenomenon and event that I witnessed in some way. I ruled out being tricked by others...for reasons that I deemed valid. The options and alternatives at that point were rather limited. Jar might suggest that we simply label it as an unexplained and unknown event. This is probably the most honest approach, so my conclusion may have been due to bias and premature at best.
In that case, allow me to whip out Occam's Razor. If a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway - such as speaking in "otherworldly" voices - why do you need to postulate the existence of the demon at all?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: Point taken. I can only theorize that the person whom I observed was oppressed. The behavior was not his usual behavior, and the voices were---honestly---something that a human could not duplicate. He had to have "let them" influence him at some point in his life prior to the manifestation.
This just doesn't make any sense. On one hand you seem to be saying that demons can't influence what humans decide to do and on the other you seem to be attributing something you witnessed a person do to demonic influence. This seems contradictory. can you clarify what role you believe the demon played in this example of yours?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: So at the time you observed him he was acting under the influence of a demon but he had decided to let himself be influenced by said demon - That is what you believe? Yes, but keep in mind, as I have stated before, that I am predisposed towards accepting such beliefs. A true skeptic would be scratching his head to this very day.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: Its been awhile, but IIRC, his close friends concluded that there were generational "curses" or spirits within his family lineage. I simply made the justification that the behavior(and cause of such behavior) was not really his desire....he was a victim. These points that you bring up are interesting, though. Bak then we simply assumed that anything that spectacular had to be demons and the particulars were not really important to us...in our view there was no real science to exorcism...just faith that the Holy Spirit would always overcome the other wannabes. More recently, as I have matured (aside from still holding irrational beliefs) I conclude that demons are common and are a bit like catching a cold...anyone can have them but they wont usually kill you.
What I am interested in is the basis on which you have concluded that he decided to let himself be influenced by said demon? How have you concluded that he was complicit rather than resistant to this demonic influence?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: Honestly I don't know. Using the cold analogy, once I have a cold I cant help coughing and becoming stuffed up. I may have at one time been a victim in that my immune system was low and I caught a draft or caught germs from coughing people at work. i dont want to cough, but the mechanism is established. Does this make any sense?
How can someone be a victim of demonic influence if the demon can't make them doing anything they hadn't decided to do anyway? To clear this up can you answer the following - Do you think a demon could potentially make me or you do something we didn't want to do?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: I don't get the cold/cough analogy because nobody chooses to have a cold/cough.... So I'm a bit lost as to the role you believe the demon played in this example of your to be honest. it seems very confused. Keep in mind that I am but speculating. There is no real science to this religious/spiritual stuff, anyway. Nobody may choose to have a cough or cold, but they do like dancing in the rain. (with a lowered immune system of which they were unaware. Nobody may choose to allow a demon to enter/influence them, but they do love to watch porn, associate with nebulous characters, or knowingly mock God.
John Eckhardt writes: The previous article sums up a mainstream belief in this stuff. Im not sure if I buy it, but, after witnessing odd behavior at so-called deliverance sessions, I tentatively concluded that 80% of it was faked, which leaves 20% unexplained.
If we can be subjected to the consequences of sin to the fourth generation, as Exodus 20:5 says, and a biblical generation is 40 years, then we are subject to the demonic influence of what people in our family lines were doing 160 years before us. This means that, taking the year 2000 as a starting point, we are affected by what those in our bloodlines were doing as far back as the year 1840. Think about it. Even if a person has a great genealogy, he can't know everything his ancestors were doing in secret that long ago. And if, in addition to generational sin, he has committed personal sin or has been traumatized or victimized in any way, by the time he comes to the Lord, he is going to need deliverance on some level. There is just too much defilement and contamination on Earth to escape it.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How do you make the leap from unexplained to demons? I see and hear things all the time that are unexplained. Whoopee. Doesn't mean with scientific investigation they cannot be explained. That being said there are lots of things science can not explain. Do you subscribe that the explanation is supernatural for these too? No. Quite honestly, Theodoric, I am biased towards woo type explanations, since I have experienced the emotion of such stuff. Perhaps it is a bit illogical, but im a bit of a strange one.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theodoric writes: Perhaps, but not everything without evidence and/or proof should be disregarded as a possibility. Of course, now that I said that someone will bring up fairies,bigfoot, and loch ness and claim the same status.
"Woo" is not an explanation. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
straggler writes: All of us do things that we don't want to do. Some of these things are minor things in our minds and hearts. Others are quite important...so that we essentially sin against ourselves when doing them. I agree that for some folks, porn is no big deal. Perhaps another thing is a big deal....stealing from your mother, or lying to your wife. When a person knowingly goes against their own morality, they allow a legal entrance for the demons. When we are enticed, God withdraws His power and lets us flounder in our own power, at which point satan has claim. (thats what the dogma teaches, at any rate) So lets say I'm sitting here watching porn whilst knowingly mocking god and let's also assume I have low demonic resistance. Can a demon now, in your view, start influencing my behaviour to make me do things I don't want to do?What is it you think I am opening myself up to in terms of demonic influence here? You are becoming double minded, and are no longer certain of what it is you really want or believe. Being of two minds is being weak. It is also being susceptible to following a path not initially of your own choosing.
Romans 7:15 writes:
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theodoric writes: How can any definition of the supernatural (God or demons) even be objective? Your whole idea of demons is vague and nebulous. It is a classic example of not knowing how to define something but knowing it when you see it. Subjectivity at its finest. I cant expect you--an unbeliever--to define it any less vague than I can, except to say that in your conclusion it is all in my head. Some things by definition have to be vague and nebulous.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: Is it possible for you to accept that a thing could exist even if you or I were unable to define it, or do you hold to the belief that anything unobjectionable is by definition as good as not there?
In fact isn't the entire idea of defining things to ensure that we all mean the same thing when we use certain language......? definitions are by definition objective. Otherwise there is no point to them.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Perhaps I can desribe the thought process another way, without the label of "demons".
The Beast described in Rational Recovery is an example of our inner addictive voice. The way that we talk to ourselves and address ourselves allows for subtle behaviors that are not us--and yet that are us. Understanding how this inner battle works is a key to its defeat, but our animal nature is very persistent and we need Am understanding of AVRT short for addictive voice recognition training. By now you are probably wondering if I am willing to admit that demons are all creations of our own minds...in which case I won't say . I'll let you draw your own conclusions!
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