We have heard it rumored that the demons Jesus and His apostles cast out are fallen angels.
However, there is no passage that actually says that (to our knowledge). This came to us earlier as we were contemplating Jude 6, And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day
The issue here is that Satan and his Angels are cast out of Heaven immediately after Jesus' resurrection (Rev 12:9). If the Authors of Jude and Peter claim that these angels were put into hell, then they could not have been around tormenting people during Acts, and Paul would not be too concerned about their teaching people in 1st Timothy 4:1.
If it may appear that demons are not fallen angels, then what are they, and where do they come from? Some might find this just an odd question of no real relevance, but some would find it very relevant because many teach that the Father cannot create anything evil. The bible itself says no such thing, but many hold that it would go against the God's goodness. This is rumored to be the same reason people claim Satan had to be an angel at some point. Actually, it seems the above verses would suggest that Satan is not, in fact, a fallen angel, as (apparently) he is not confined in hell at the moment.
Perhaps demons are evil souls of Nephlim who died.
[shrugs]
Anyone else have some ideas?
One Love
bible study please (& thank you)
Edited by Bailey, : grammar
I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas. My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself. Think for yourself.
Demons are simply a way for xians to personify that which is not xian, to look at other religions and label any their supernatural entities as evil and terrify the gullible into the benevolent arms of the priest or vicar.
I agree thanks for beating me to the punch. I was going to say basically the same thing. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
The issue here is that Satan and his Angels are cast out of Heaven immediately after Jesus' resurrection (Rev 12:9).
Are you sure about the timing of this event?
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
This scripture nor any of those around it even hint that this took place immediately after Jesus' resurrection.
You got anything better than that?
Bailey writes:
Paul would not be too concerned about their teaching people in 1st Timothy 4:1.
I Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
The word δαιμόνιον translated demons in most translations has no such definition.
δαιμόνιον transliteration daimonion.
Definition
1) the divine power, deity, divinity
2) a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
3) evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil
Bailey writes:
where do they come from?
Seems like somebody didn't like calling them devils.
Bailey writes:
Some might find this just an odd question of no real relevance, but some would find it very relevant because many teach that the Father cannot create anything evil.
Well someone that does not believe the Bible could come to the conclusion that God did not create evil.
Or someone who has cut this passage out of the Bible.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
But then there are Bibles that do not have the book of Isaiah in them.
Bailey writes:
Satan had to be an angel at some point.
He still is.
He was created an evil angel and he is still an evil angel.
Angel = ἄγγελος transliteration aggelos.
Definition a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God.
Bailey writes:
as (apparently) he is not confined in hell at the moment.
He definitely is not confined to hell or the lake of fire at the moment.
I Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Sounds like he is footloose and fancy free to go about his business to me.
Bailey writes:
Anyone else have some ideas?
Why not let them be just what they are.
The evil messengers of the devil. Who was created by God to tempt you and I. So we could make choices in life.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
The evil messengers of the devil. Who was created by God to tempt you and I. So we could make choices in life.
So here is a spin-off question. If God created beings (and has also according to the Bible "sent out") to tempt us and who he knew in advance were evil, would that not make God not only the creator of evil but also evil himself? Even the Bible seems to backs this point up as shown here:
Genesis 2:9 writes:
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Judges 9:23-24 writes:
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech, so that the violence done to the seventy sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood might be laid on Abimelech their brother, who killed them, and on the men of Shechem, who strengthened his hands to kill his brothers.
I Samuel 16:23 writes:
So it came about whenever the evil spirit from God came to Saul, David would take the harp and play it with his hand; and Saul would be refreshed and be well, and the evil spirit would depart from him.
I Samuel 18:10 writes:
Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand.
I Samuel 19:9 writes:
Now there was an evil spirit from the LORD on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.
II Kings 6:33 writes:
While he was still talking with them, behold, the messenger came down to him and he said, "Behold, this evil is from the LORD; why should I wait for the LORD any longer?"
This was said by Elisha, a chosen prophet of God.
Isaiah 45:7 writes:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
Amos 3:6 writes:
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
Lamentations 3:38 writes:
Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and evil go forth?
Just a philosophical thought.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
I do know there must be good and evil for there to be a choice.
If there was no evil what would the choice be?
Good, Good, or Good.
Therefore it was necessary for the devil and his messengera to exist. The only way for that to happen was for God to create them. It was also necessary for the first man to disobey God's rule for us to exist.
So those that don't like God's plan can tell Him how He should have done things when they meet Him.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
So here is a spin-off question. If God created beings (and has also according to the Bible "sent out") to tempt us and who he knew in advance were evil, would that not make God not only the creator of evil but also evil himself?...Just a philosophical thought.
I don't know if it is philosophical or not.
Thanks for answering my question, ICANT. I guess what I mean by philisophical is that this question pertains to the study of ethics (what behavior is considered right and wrong i.e. morality) which is a subset of philosophy.
I do know there must be good and evil for there to be a choice.
I guess it depends on how do you define good and evil?
Especially from your statements it appears that God created both good and evil. Or is good and evil arbitrarily determined by God and we can not comprehend the reasoning behind the decision of what is good and what is evil.
Also it sounds like "good" and "evil" are created by God and thus dependent on the existence of God rather than existing seperate from the existence of God? If this is true how are you sure that God is truly good and not evil? What standard are you basing this assumption on?
Therefore it was necessary for the devil and his messengera to exist.
It was necessary for what reason? If he knew the havoc and destructions these beings would cause, why create them in the first place? Why create beings who you know in advance would turn against you and then spend eternity in hell? To me that seams sadistic.
The only way for that to happen was for God to create them.
So if God knowingly created evil beings would that not make him evil? And according to the Bible as shown earlier, it acknowledges that he did create evil.
It was also necessary for the first man to disobey God's rule for us to exist.
Why could we not exist without someone disobeying God's rule?
I don't have so much a problem with the rules so much as the hypocricy in the punishment for the disobedience. God accepts murderers, adulterours, child molesters, etc. into heaven as long as they believe in Jesus and ask him for forgiveness. However, if someone has lived a good, decent life and has helped the orphans, homeless, etc but through reason and logic determined that God does not exist and thus asks people he has wronged for forgiveness but not Jesus/God than he will spend eternity tormented in hell.
Here is a rather humorous video I thought that puts this into perspective:
So those that don't like God's plan can tell Him how He should have done things when they meet Him.
Nice cop-out. I am sorry but this is just an attempt not to answer difficult questions. Why should we believe you if you try to avoid answering our questions? Isn't the whole reason for you posting on EvC, to try to save the lost?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
If you don't mind, we were hoping to address the issues within your post separately; beginning here.
youhave writes:
Weary writes:
The issue here is that Satan and his Angels are cast out of Heaven immediately after Jesus' resurrection (Rev 12:9)
Are you sure about the timing of this event?
No. Test it according to the Father's words; the Bereans received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scripturesdaily to find out whether these things were so. We are only sure that Jesus and His Father have revealed One technique for everliving survival and are currently accepting applications.
Are you suggesting the debbil and its posse were ejected from the Mansion and further strapped down before Christ's resurrection?
How does that reconcile; or have we misunderstood each other?
This scripture nor any of those around it even hint that this took place immediately after Jesus' resurrection.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
You got anything better than that?
We suppose that will remain to be seen.
Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
ThenI heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Nowthe salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
“And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
“For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.â€
Do you see?
One Love
I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas. My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself. Think for yourself.
Are you suggesting the 'evil spirits' inferior to the Father, or the 'messengers of the devil', spoken of in Timothy are something other than 'demons'?
Please expound, so we may further respond.
One Love
I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas. My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself. Think for yourself.
The evil messengers of the devil. Who was created by God to tempt you and I. So we could make choices in life.
So here is a spin-off question.
If God created beings (and has also according to the Bible "sent out") to tempt us and who he knew in advance were evil, would that not make God not only the creator of evil but also evil himself?
An interesting topic. Is anyone able to provide a chapter and verse establishing that the Father has created beings with the specific purpose of tempting us, or that He knew of their evil in advance, if such is the case?
lol - or is this more like jew/catholic/protestant dogma that appears unsubstantiated within scripture? Kinda like, the debbil is a 'fallen' angel, hell is for mortals, the Father of Life punishes the ones He Loves, all 'christians' Love Jesus and are received unto Him without blemish, etc..
No offence intended; yet, we are not religious and have found little, if anything, to evidence such opinions (nor have we located scripture encouraging the Ones the Father Loves to have faith in the debbil and its dwelling - been lookin' high and lo for it too).
TIA
One Love
I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas. My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself. Think for yourself.
I guess it depends on how do you define good and evil?
So if I define murder as good that makes it all right to commit murder. Is that what you are saying?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Especially from your statements it appears that God created both good and evil.
I quoted the scripture as well as you did that stated:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
It don't get stated any better than that.
That says "I the Lord create evil".
I believe He also stated what was evil and the punishment for evil deeds were. He did give a lot of rules to go by.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Also it sounds like "good" and "evil" are created by God and thus dependent on the existence of God
Everything is dependent on the existence of God.
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
We have our existence in Him.
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
By Him all things exist.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So if God knowingly created evil beings would that not make him evil? And according to the Bible as shown earlier, it acknowledges that he did create evil.
This is one of them trick questions where you are trying to get me to speak for God. I think I will let Him speak for Himself instead.
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
When you understand the ways of God let me know.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
It was necessary for what reason? If he knew the havoc and destructions these beings would cause, why create them in the first place?
I have answered this several times but will repeat. So you and I and everybody else could have a choice.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Why create beings who you know in advance would turn against you and then spend eternity in hell?
Nobody has ever convinced me the devil or his messengers have ever done anything other than what they are supposed to do. I am persuaded to believe they will always do what they were created for.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
To me that seams sadistic.
So.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So if God knowingly created evil beings would that not make him evil? And according to the Bible as shown earlier, it acknowledges that he did create evil.
You keep saying that as if you say it enough I will agree with you. I am not going to question the wisdom of God or God's plan for man. Nor am I going to worry about it.
I have a saying about worry.
Why worry about something, if you can change it don't worry just change it.
If you can't change something, why worry about it?
So you can worry about why God did this and why God did that all you want you can't change one thing He did or will do.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Why could we not exist without someone disobeying God's rule?
Not just someone the first man that was formed from the dust of the ground that God breathed the breath of life into. He was the only man who had a choice between eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. No one else ever had or will have that choice.
Had he not chosen to eat of the fruit he would still be in the garden as he would not have died and he would never have been kicked out of the garden.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Nice cop-out. I am sorry but this is just an attempt not to answer difficult questions.
At least it's as good as the "We don't know" I get when I ask where the universe that is at T=10-43 came from.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Why should we believe you if you try to avoid answering our questions?
I really thought I was making a statement rather than answering a question.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Isn't the whole reason for you posting on EvC, to try to save the lost?
No.
It is not my job to save the lost and I couldn't do it if I wanted too.
That is God's Job through His word and the Holy Spirit convicting people they need to be saved.
A person has to get lost before they can get saved.
How does a person who does not believe God exists and the Bible is a myth get lost?
I had been out of the country for over 15 years when I joined EvC and was far behind in up to date things, as I had been involved in building a church and parsonage getting it all paid for before I came back to the states.
So I came to EvC to catch up on current things as I had read many posts and thought it would be a good place to learn.
I was not disappointed too much. I do have a lot of questions that I would like to see discussed but that will never happen.
Now if I say something here that causes someone to question their belief system fine it not fine. I have put forth my view.
Also I have been able to discuss a belief I have held since I was 9 years old that everybody has always told me I was crazy for believing. You can find it Here. The title is The Literal Genesis Account of Creation.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
Are you suggesting the 'evil spirits' inferior to the Father, or the 'messengers of the devil', spoken of in Timothy are something other than 'demons'?
Please expound, so we may further respond.
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Notice my Bible translates devils instead of demons as many of our popular versions translate δαιμόνιον.
δαιμόνιον = 1) the divine power 2) a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men 3) evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil
These are the primary meanings of δαιμόνιον .
I would think #3 would be best for Paul's application describing to Timothy what was going to happen.
Although all are correct. They have divine power given to them by God. They are a spirit being that is inferior to God, yet superior to man. They are evil spirits the (Angels) messengers of the devil.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
So when did this take place?
How can I conclude this took place prior to or at Jesus ressurrection?
This event has not taken place yet.
This is the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period when the antichrist stands in the Holy Place and declares himself to be God.
If not how is it that:
quote:for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
The devil accuses us before God everytime we stumble?
After this event the devil and his messengers are cast out and:
Bailey writes:
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come,
Christ will set his feet where He left from, many things will happen and He will set up His Kingdom here on earth that will last at least 1000 years.
Bailey writes:
Do you see?
So no I do not see how all that took place at the ressurrection.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
Are you suggesting the 'evil spirits' inferior to the Father, or the 'messengers of the devil', spoken of in Timothy are something other than 'demons'?
Please expound, so we may further respond.
Notice my Bible translates devils instead of demons as many of our popular versions translate δαιμόνιον ..... They are evil spirits the (Angels) messengers of the devil.
So, you assume the entities spoken of in Timothy to be 'fallen' angels, correct?
Are they the same as demons, or separate species?
TIA
One Love
I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas. My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself. Think for yourself.
™ Version 4.1
