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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 181 of 349 (672248)
09-05-2012 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
09-05-2012 2:39 AM


Re: Objective vs Subjective
Phat writes:
And as one who has had subjective evidence, I dont buy the idea that demons are not real.
I don't doubt that subjective experiences can be very personally convincing. But you cannot justifiably cite some experience as evidence of something just because you happen to believe that the something in question is the cause of said experience. More objective evidence strongly favours less exotic causes of such experiences.
Do you have any reason beyond belief to attribute the cause of this experience of yours to demons (or whatever supernatural entity it is you are alluding to)?
If I had a deeply compelling subjective experience (e.g. a disturbingly vivid vision) and I happened to believe that this subjective experience was caused by empirically undetectable telepathic beams from mind controlling aliens would the fact of this experience qualify as evidence of the existence of mind controlling aliens? Or not?
The problem with the whole ‘subjective experiences are evidence’ thing is that you have to believe/assume that the cause of the experience is the thing supposedly being evidenced in order for it to be evidenced by the experience. It’s circular.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 09-05-2012 2:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 182 of 349 (672269)
09-05-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Straggler
09-04-2012 1:06 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
for reasons that have everything to do with human psychology and nothing to do with the actual existence of real demons.
I agree. But again realness is in the eye of the beholder.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 183 of 349 (672270)
09-05-2012 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
09-05-2012 2:39 AM


Re: Objective vs Subjective
Phat writes:
And as one who has had subjective evidence, I dont buy the idea that demons are not real.
"Subjective evidence" is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?
Suppose I was standing right beside you when you had your experience and I said, "I think he's faking." Would that shake your faith in demons? Suppose somebody else in the room said, "I think he's mentally ill." Would that shake your faith in demons?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 09-05-2012 2:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 09-07-2012 3:24 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 184 of 349 (672341)
09-07-2012 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by ringo
09-05-2012 12:45 PM


Re: Objective vs Subjective
Ringo writes:
Suppose I was standing right beside you when you had your experience and I said, "I think he's faking." Would that shake your faith in demons? Suppose somebody else in the room said, "I think he's mentally ill." Would that shake your faith in demons?
If you were in the same room that we were observing what we observed and you said it was fake, it would change my confidence based on the perceptions of myself and others.
If more people in the room doubted the event, it would shake my perception of the event being as genuine and undeniable as I saw it with the entire room in agreement. In fact, I would question what I experienced a lot more had there been witnesses who were less sure and/or convinced of the event.
Straggler writes:
Do you have any reason beyond belief to attribute the cause of this experience of yours to demons (or whatever supernatural entity it is you are alluding to)?
No. I admit to a bias in favor of my explanation given.
Edited by Phat, : added quote

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 185 of 349 (672346)
09-07-2012 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Phat
09-07-2012 3:24 AM


Re: Objective vs Subjective
Phat writes:
Straggler writes:
Do you have any reason beyond belief to attribute the cause of this experience of yours to demons (or whatever supernatural entity it is you are alluding to)?
No.
Then you are misusing the word "evidence".
Phat writes:
I admit to a bias in favor of my explanation given.
And yet you describe the experience in question as "subjective evidence" of demons (or whatever other supernatural entity you are alluding to).
You attributing the experience to said supernatural entity is evidence only of your bias. It isn't evidence of demons any more than it is evidence of fluctuations in the matrix or any other conceivable explanation.
Do you still think this experience constitutes evidence of the thing you believe in?

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Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 186 of 349 (672383)
09-07-2012 3:15 PM


"I took a bus home yesterday".
It is true. I know it. So do you guys mean that it can't be true because that it is not evident to you?

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2012 3:27 PM Hawkins has replied
 Message 190 by Straggler, posted 09-07-2012 4:30 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 187 of 349 (672385)
09-07-2012 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Hawkins
09-07-2012 3:15 PM


Hawkins writes:
"I took a bus home yesterday".
It is true. I know it. So do you guys mean that it can't be true because that it is not evident to you?
Buses exist and people take them, so I feel able to believe you. But if you'd said you rode home on dragonback, I'd ask for more evidence.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:15 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 188 of 349 (672387)
09-07-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Tangle
09-07-2012 3:27 PM


Buses exist and people take them, so I feel able to believe you. But if you'd said you rode home on dragonback, I'd ask for more evidence.
=========
By the assumption that I truly rode one but later it flied away. Then the truth suddenly will not be the truth simply because it's not evident?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2012 3:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2012 3:57 PM Hawkins has replied
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 2:54 PM Hawkins has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 189 of 349 (672389)
09-07-2012 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Hawkins
09-07-2012 3:36 PM


Hawkins writes:
By the assumption that I truly rode one but later it flied away. Then the truth suddenly will not be the truth simply because it's not evident?
Neither are necessarily the truth just because you say it.
But the bus is rather more believable than the dragon, don't you think? For me to believe that you rode a dragon, I would first - and at the very least - need to have proof that dragons actually exist, because I don't think that they do and can find no objective evidence of them. In short, I'd be a fool to believe you.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:36 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 190 of 349 (672392)
09-07-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Hawkins
09-07-2012 3:15 PM


Can you explain how you have come to the conclusion that the existence of demons and the existence of buses are in some way comparable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:15 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 191 of 349 (673298)
09-18-2012 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Tangle
09-07-2012 3:57 PM


Neither are necessarily the truth just because you say it.
But the bus is rather more believable than the dragon, don't you think? For me to believe that you rode a dragon, I would first - and at the very least - need to have proof that dragons actually exist, because I don't think that they do and can find no objective evidence of them. In short, I'd be a fool to believe you.
============================================
You completely miss the point. There's kind of truth which is completely not evident to humans. For an example, the existence of black holes is completely not evident to humans in stone age. For this kind of truth (which is not evident to humans), how will you be able to spread the message that you encountered one (by the assumption that it is true that you encountered one)?
From a backward deductive perspective, the best you can do is to,
1) write a book about it to tell humans what happened
2) martyr yourself as a witnessing that it is true
That's already the best you can do, whether humans believe or not is a matter of their own decision.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Tangle, posted 09-07-2012 3:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2012 2:22 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 192 of 349 (673312)
09-18-2012 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 1:09 PM


Hawkins writes:
You completely miss the point. There's kind of truth which is completely not evident to humans. For an example, the existence of black holes is completely not evident to humans in stone age. For this kind of truth (which is not evident to humans), how will you be able to spread the message that you encountered one (by the assumption that it is true that you encountered one)?
If something is not evident to us, it's impossible to know anything at all about it - let alone call it true or believe in it.
Your stone age guy didn't believe in black holes but he probably believed that gods threw lightening bolts to the ground. He believed that because he knew that lightening bolts existed but had no idea how they worked so had to invent a method. The god invention solved a problem until it could be solved properly.
So, no, I don't need to see you getting on a bus to believe that you did it - that's because it's a believable statement. It's a believable statement because it's commonplace. I now 'believe' in blackholes because they are supported by evidence - it's become a commonplace. I would believe in your god if it was supported by evidence - as it stands, his existence is as obvious as blackholes were to your stone age man.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:09 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 193 of 349 (673317)
09-18-2012 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Hawkins
09-07-2012 3:36 PM


Hawkins writes:
Then the truth suddenly will not be the truth simply because it's not evident?
That's pretty much what evidence means, yes. If you can't show it to somebody else, it isn't evidence and you can't convince them that your claim is "true".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:36 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 2:56 PM ringo has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 194 of 349 (673318)
09-18-2012 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
09-18-2012 2:54 PM


That's pretty much what evidence means, yes. If you can't show it to somebody else, it isn't evidence and you can't convince them that your claim is "true".
============================================
You mean human history can't convince anyone? Or do you mean that the 1/3 humans as believers are not humans?
That seems to be the reality you can't face.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 2:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 3:05 PM Hawkins has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 195 of 349 (673323)
09-18-2012 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 2:56 PM


Hawkins writes:
You mean human history can't convince anyone?
History is what can be verified with evidence. The fact that people in history believed something is not evidence that that something is true. People have believd in all kinds of crazy things like astrology and alchemy. People have believed in all kinds of false gods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 2:56 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 3:12 PM ringo has replied

  
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