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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 211 of 349 (673416)
09-19-2012 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 3:12 PM


Hawk writes:
Do you accept the fact the most of them can't?
No. There is a reason we distinguish between ancient Greek myths and ancient Greek history. For example. Plato is history. Zeus is myth.
Hawk writes:
Among the 5000 written history of over 1000 nations, how much of them is evidenced?
As far as I understand the question (which is grammatically non-sensical) the answer is - All of those that are considered history rather than myth.
AbE - But what does any of this have to do with demons?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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 Message 196 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 3:12 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 212 of 349 (673525)
09-20-2012 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
08-22-2012 12:04 PM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Phat writes:
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway
Ringo writes:
In that case, allow me to whip out Occam's Razor. If a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway - such as speaking in "otherworldly" voices - why do you need to postulate the existence of the demon at all?
Well....I had to explain the unusual phenomenon and event that I witnessed in some way. I ruled out being tricked by others...for reasons that I deemed valid. The options and alternatives at that point were rather limited. Jar might suggest that we simply label it as an unexplained and unknown event. This is probably the most honest approach, so my conclusion may have been due to bias and premature at best.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-22-2012 12:04 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 09-20-2012 6:12 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 213 of 349 (673542)
09-20-2012 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
09-20-2012 2:24 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Phat writes:
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway
Ringo writes:
In that case, allow me to whip out Occam's Razor. If a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway - such as speaking in "otherworldly" voices - why do you need to postulate the existence of the demon at all?
Phat writes:
Well....I had to explain the unusual phenomenon and event that I witnessed in some way.
This just doesn't make any sense. On one hand you seem to be saying that demons can't influence what humans decide to do and on the other you seem to be attributing something you witnessed a person do to demonic influence. This seems contradictory.
can you clarify what role you believe the demon played in this example of yours?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 09-20-2012 2:24 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 09-20-2012 10:47 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 349 (673565)
09-20-2012 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Straggler
09-20-2012 6:12 AM


Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
This just doesn't make any sense. On one hand you seem to be saying that demons can't influence what humans decide to do and on the other you seem to be attributing something you witnessed a person do to demonic influence. This seems contradictory.
can you clarify what role you believe the demon played in this example of yours?
Point taken. I can only theorize that the person whom I observed was oppressed. The behavior was not his usual behavior, and the voices were---honestly---something that a human could not duplicate. He had to have "let them" influence him at some point in his life prior to the manifestation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 09-20-2012 6:12 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Straggler, posted 09-20-2012 11:23 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 215 of 349 (673573)
09-20-2012 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
09-20-2012 10:47 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
So at the time you observed him he was acting under the influence of a demon but he had decided to let himself be influenced by said demon - That is what you believe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 09-20-2012 10:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 09-22-2012 10:38 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 216 of 349 (673784)
09-22-2012 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Straggler
09-20-2012 11:23 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
So at the time you observed him he was acting under the influence of a demon but he had decided to let himself be influenced by said demon - That is what you believe?
Yes, but keep in mind, as I have stated before, that I am predisposed towards accepting such beliefs. A true skeptic would be scratching his head to this very day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Straggler, posted 09-20-2012 11:23 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 9:06 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 217 of 349 (673949)
09-25-2012 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
09-22-2012 10:38 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Phat writes:
Yes, but keep in mind, as I have stated before, that I am predisposed towards accepting such beliefs. A true skeptic would be scratching his head to this very day.
Let's accept your predisposition towards believing in the existence of demons.
What I am interested in is the basis on which you have concluded that he decided to let himself be influenced by said demon?
How have you concluded that he was complicit rather than resistant to this demonic influence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 09-22-2012 10:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 9:45 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 218 of 349 (673958)
09-25-2012 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Straggler
09-25-2012 9:06 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
What I am interested in is the basis on which you have concluded that he decided to let himself be influenced by said demon?
How have you concluded that he was complicit rather than resistant to this demonic influence?
Its been awhile, but IIRC, his close friends concluded that there were generational "curses" or spirits within his family lineage. I simply made the justification that the behavior(and cause of such behavior) was not really his desire....he was a victim. These points that you bring up are interesting, though. Bak then we simply assumed that anything that spectacular had to be demons and the particulars were not really important to us...in our view there was no real science to exorcism...just faith that the Holy Spirit would always overcome the other wannabes. More recently, as I have matured (aside from still holding irrational beliefs) I conclude that demons are common and are a bit like catching a cold...anyone can have them but they wont usually kill you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 9:06 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 1:12 PM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 219 of 349 (673977)
09-25-2012 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
09-25-2012 9:45 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Phat writes:
Its been awhile, but IIRC, his close friends concluded that there were generational "curses" or spirits within his family lineage. I simply made the justification that the behavior(and cause of such behavior) was not really his desire....he was a victim.
I don't see how the above can be reconciled with this:
Phat writes:
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway.
How can someone be a victim of demonic influence if the demon can't make them doing anything they hadn't decided to do anyway?
To clear this up can you answer the following - Do you think a demon could potentially make me or you do something we didn't want to do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 9:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 2:04 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 349 (673989)
09-25-2012 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Straggler
09-25-2012 1:12 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
How can someone be a victim of demonic influence if the demon can't make them doing anything they hadn't decided to do anyway?
To clear this up can you answer the following - Do you think a demon could potentially make me or you do something we didn't want to do?
Honestly I don't know. Using the cold analogy, once I have a cold I cant help coughing and becoming stuffed up. I may have at one time been a victim in that my immune system was low and I caught a draft or caught germs from coughing people at work. i dont want to cough, but the mechanism is established. Does this make any sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 1:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Straggler, posted 09-27-2012 1:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 221 of 349 (674272)
09-27-2012 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
09-25-2012 2:04 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Phat writes:
Does this make any sense?
Not really. Because I still can't square that with this:
Phat writes:
In my opinion, a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway
I don't get the cold/cough analogy because nobody chooses to have a cold/cough....
So I'm a bit lost as to the role you believe the demon played in this example of your to be honest. it seems very confused.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 2:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 09-27-2012 4:13 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 222 of 349 (674287)
09-27-2012 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Straggler
09-27-2012 1:51 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
I don't get the cold/cough analogy because nobody chooses to have a cold/cough....
So I'm a bit lost as to the role you believe the demon played in this example of your to be honest. it seems very confused.
Keep in mind that I am but speculating. There is no real science to this religious/spiritual stuff, anyway.
Nobody may choose to have a cough or cold, but they do like dancing in the rain. (with a lowered immune system of which they were unaware.
Nobody may choose to allow a demon to enter/influence them, but they do love to watch porn, associate with nebulous characters, or knowingly mock God.
John Eckhardt writes:
If we can be subjected to the consequences of sin to the fourth generation, as Exodus 20:5 says, and a biblical generation is 40 years, then we are subject to the demonic influence of what people in our family lines were doing 160 years before us. This means that, taking the year 2000 as a starting point, we are affected by what those in our bloodlines were doing as far back as the year 1840.
Think about it. Even if a person has a great genealogy, he can't know everything his ancestors were doing in secret that long ago. And if, in addition to generational sin, he has committed personal sin or has been traumatized or victimized in any way, by the time he comes to the Lord, he is going to need deliverance on some level. There is just too much defilement and contamination on Earth to escape it.
The previous article sums up a mainstream belief in this stuff. Im not sure if I buy it, but, after witnessing odd behavior at so-called deliverance sessions, I tentatively concluded that 80% of it was faked, which leaves 20% unexplained.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Straggler, posted 09-27-2012 1:51 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2012 5:08 PM Phat has replied
 Message 228 by Straggler, posted 09-28-2012 6:51 AM Phat has replied
 Message 229 by Theodoric, posted 09-28-2012 11:11 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 223 of 349 (674290)
09-27-2012 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
09-27-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
, I tentatively concluded that 80% of it was faked, which leaves 20% unexplained.
How do you make the leap from unexplained to demons? I see and hear things all the time that are unexplained. Whoopee. Doesn't mean with scientific investigation they cannot be explained. That being said there are lots of things science can not explain. Do you subscribe that the explanation is supernatural for these too?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 09-27-2012 4:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Phat, posted 09-27-2012 5:25 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 224 of 349 (674292)
09-27-2012 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Theodoric
09-27-2012 5:08 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
How do you make the leap from unexplained to demons? I see and hear things all the time that are unexplained. Whoopee. Doesn't mean with scientific investigation they cannot be explained. That being said there are lots of things science can not explain. Do you subscribe that the explanation is supernatural for these too?
No. Quite honestly, Theodoric, I am biased towards woo type explanations, since I have experienced the emotion of such stuff. Perhaps it is a bit illogical, but im a bit of a strange one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2012 5:08 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2012 5:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 225 of 349 (674293)
09-27-2012 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Phat
09-27-2012 5:25 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Well I should have an addendum to my signature.
"Woo" is not an explanation. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Phat, posted 09-27-2012 5:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 09-27-2012 10:29 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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