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Author | Topic: Which More 3LoT Compatible, Cavediver's Temp.Non-ID Or Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Buz writes: There is a zero net change in the total entropy of the closed system (Universe), thus satisfying compatibility to the 1st Law Of Thermodynamics. Buz can you explain how there is no net increase in entropy within the universe when absolutely everything going on around you is resulting in an increase in the total entropy? I've just picked up a cup. The total entropy within the universe has increased as a result. How are you getting round this rather inconvenient fact?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I've just rubbed my hand across the desk and there most definitely was friction and an increase in the entropy of the universe as a result.
So how is the net entropy within the universe not increasing Buz?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: Buz can you explain how there is no net increase in entropy within the universe when absolutely everything going on around you is resulting in an increase in the total entropy? My bad. I posted this without thinking that it is only the total energy of the system does not change.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So do you agree that the total entropy is increasing?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: So how is the net entropy within the universe not increasing Buz? The ID entity, engineering (compatible to the 2nd Law) system) effects a fluctuation of the -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by Buzsaw, : strike out "net"BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Buz writes: The ID entity, engineering (compatible to the 2nd Law) system) effects a fluctuation of the net entropy of the system.... What does that even mean? Buz given that every event ever observed results in an increase in the total entropy within the universe how on Earth can your eternal universe not be in a state of equilibrium (i.e. maximum entropy)? Are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting the observed increases in entropy by reducing the entropy of the universe in some unseen way?
Buz writes: ....the net change in the system's energy remaining at zero as per the first law of thermodynamics. Yes you have already stated that the total energy in your model remains constant. But your model still obviously defies the second law of thermodynamics.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: Buz given that every event ever observed results in an increase in the total entropy within the universe Oh. So you've observed entropy increasing uniformity for the 1st 13 1/2 BYA? What did the Universe look like 4 1/2 BYA? How about 5 BYA? You've observed all that exists, beyond the range of our telescopes, etc? You've observed chaos and disorder advancing all of the way up to the order and complexity that we have, including the primordial stuff forming into orderly stars, planets, etc,? You've observed primordial soup coming to life all the way to now? You've observed what set off a submicroscopic hot chaotic speck suddenly appearing to expand into all of the order and wonderment observed? You're an amazing person to observe all of that magic, Straggler. Was that in your other life? If ever increasing entropy can do all of that naturally, who should want an engineered decrease in entropy? Edited by Buzsaw, : Change punctuation and eliminate wordBUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
But the fact that we never see a magical decrease in net entropy surely is significant, just as the fact that we've never seen a winged pig is relevant to the question of whether there are pigs with wings.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Dr Adequate writes:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But the fact that we never see a magical decrease in net entropy surely is significant, just as the fact that we've never seen a winged pig is relevant to the question of whether there are pigs with wings.The fact is that nobody has seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Meddle Member (Idle past 1301 days) Posts: 179 From: Scotland Joined:
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So what you are saying is, we don't know if there is an overall increase in entropy, therefore the second law of thermodynamics is wrong, and that is why your model of the universe is not compatible with the laws of thermodynamics?
Edited by Malcolm, : No reason given.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Malcolm, I said this in response to Dr. Adequate's statement:
quote: Malcolm, I ask you the same question. Have you seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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Have you seen a rain drop form? Have you seen a magic sky wizard design a universe?
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
The fact is that nobody has seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity. The fact is that no-one hasn't seen a net increase in entropy. This is all we ever see. This is why the second law of thermodynamics is considered a law of nature and not a science-fiction story about an alternative universe. Because we always see it happening. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Of course that's not true. Increases in net entropy are all around us. The sun, just by shining, increases net entropy - radiating huge amounts of energy into empty space. And that is just one of many, many stars. It is the reversible thermodynamic events which do not increase entropy that are the rarity. Your universe, where no increases in net entropy ever occur is not ours.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Every event ever observed results in an increase, never a decrease, in entropy. Every single time you do anything (lift a cup, type on your computer, walk down the road etc.) entropy increases. Never decreases. As the Sun and all of the other stars blaze away total entropy increases. Never decreases.
Do you understand this? Do you dispute this? Every event ever observed results in an increase, never a decrease, in total entropy. That is what we observe. And that is what the second law of thermodynamics tells us will always be the case. So given that every event within the universe results in an increase in entropy how on Earth can your eternal universe not be in a state of equilibrium (i.e. maximum entropy)? Are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting ALL of the observed increases in entropy by reducing the entropy of the universe in some unseen and unobservable way?
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