Summations Only

Fair enough. I may well be confusing you with ICANT or others. So - To be clear:1) The universe has existed for eternity
2) Jehovah and his angels are hanging out within the universe and re-arranging energy in ways that contradict the 2nd law of thermodynamics wherever necessary.Is that correct?Furthermore - If the universe has existed for eternity all of the matter/mass in the universe would have been clumped together and/or been absorbed by black holes.So in your model Jehovah is also reconfiguring gravity/mass to avoid this outcome. Is that correct?

Buz, it seems that you don't actually want to discuss your clarified topic at all. Aside from the fact that the first two posts are mainly about past discussions you have yet to lay to even properly explain your current position, let alone argue for your conclusion.And already you are talking about redefining science because you keep losing arguments ! Without even explaining how you want to redefine it. That's reason enough to call off any debate in the first place (even before we consider the fact that the context suggests that you want to be allowed to invent "facts", ban contrary evidence, and institutionalise bias in favour of your views).

Hi Straggler, I plead guilty.I do believe that the realm that God dwells in is the same realm that the universe we live in exists in. There could be other universes that exist in that realm.I think the scientific view of that is that there is a super universe in which many universes exist. Speaking for myself the answer is NO.1. The universe has existed in some form for all eternity, but not the form we see it in today.2. Jehovah (God the Father) does not hang out within the universe we live in.Certain of the angels go and come at will to bring messages to certain people and to protect certain people.The God Man did make an appearance into our universe in the form of a man and gave the life of that physical body that mankind might be reunited to God in the same fashion that he was in before the first man disobeyed God and ate the forbiden fruit.Since the ability of the angels and God to come and go at will in our universe it must be an open universe and can receive energy from an external source.God the Holy Spirit does reside in the universe in which we live as He seals all those who are born again into God's Family.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Wow ICANT. You managed to contradict yourself in the same post. I'm impressed. Congratulations.

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"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

Hi Buz, If any origin story of the universe required any kind of evidence the only one that would survive would be the one found in Genesis.The scientific community has no evidence for the origin of the universe.Their best answer to the question when asked about the origin of the universe is "We don't know".There are those who have proposed what is known as the string theory. The problem is they have not provided a place that a vaccum could exist in for the branes to appear and bang against each other to begin the universe we know today.There is the Hartle/Hawking instanton that when it appeared would create a universe just like the one we live in. The only place Stephen Hawking provided for this instanton to appear in was imaginary time. The problem is he did not provide a place for the imaginary time to exist in.So everything that the scientific community has presented to date is based on assumptions.Either of the two cases I mentioned above assumes that there is a place of existence in which their entities could exist and produce our universe.Beginning on that assumption they have to add several assumptions.The one I love is that everything in this massive universe that we can see and cannot see at one time was compressed into something about the size of a pin point. That means all the energy and matter in the universe was packed into that pin point size object that really had no place to exist other than an assumption.So the house of cards they have built is on an assumption.Gees, that sounds just like magic to me.Yet when we present a record that was dictated by the being that actually viewed the event it is called magic.When we present fulfilled prophecy that was fortold thousands of years before it came to pass it is just a pack of lies.Yet we are supposed to believe everything they spout as the gospel truth, even though it is all built on assumptions.Lots of luck in your endevor.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

...while I was being swamped with re-branding work - and there's a whole fracking thread with my name on it I can't promise a proper reply tonight as I've been up for 38 hours now, and in my current state, Buzz and ICANT are making a lot of sense I think sleep is needed...

Hi hooah, I said:2. Jehovah (God the Father) does not hang out within the universe we live in.God lives in a realm.The universe we live in exists in that realm.Where did I say God The Father lived in the universe that exists in the realm He resides in?I knew you had a reading problem I just did not think it was as bad as it is.Or is your mind so closed by your bias that you can only see what you want to see and read?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

You're right. I misread. I apologize. However: Then why do even attempt to wedge him into fitting within the laws of our universe? Ya know, the topic at hand?{abe}
You know who else lives in a realm? Orcs.Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

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"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

Hi hooah, To have laws someone has to write them.He wrote the laws so I don't try to wedge Him into fitting within those laws.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Then why are you commenting on the topic?

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"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

Hi ICANT. Sorry good bud, but this notion of yours that Jehovah and his the creatures around him in his throne abode are out of this Universe is nonsense and totally contrary to scripture, which says repeatedly that he and his angels are in the heavens/cosmos, the man/saviour/lord of us sitting on the right hand of his throne. Jesus comes in the heavens. He arose into the heavens/cosmos. Michael and Gabriel are in the heavens. Satan will be or has been cast from the cosmos/heavens to planet earth in these last days. All of that, good bud, is indicative that Jehovah exists within this closed system Universe.You and I, contrary to Cavediver's implication are totally on a different wave link. You are advocating an open system Universe whereas the Buzsaw Biblical literal hypothesis is that it's a closed system. The literal application of the term, uni-verse implies one/uni system, inclusive of all that exists.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

You had better re-read me, Straggler. I said what I believer to be true that 2LoT allows for an indeterminate amount of work which can regulate the equilibrium. If you read the link into my OP with the Buz Jar debate in 08, you see more clearly my position regarding 2LoT which is that via work, Jehovah, the source of energy releases energy into the system but he also receives renewal energy in various manners from the system. One example is his need to rest after working the creation out of Genesis one. The other one I cited in this thread is where Jesus, though he didn't see the woman do it, asked "who did this?. I felt energy/virtue leave me." when the woman was healed who secretly touched his garment. he reconfigures in many ways. That's what I meant by managing the universe, creating. destroying and recreating, etc. Jesus and his apostles said the world would be eventually destroyed and there will be new heavens and earth, the present heavens changed etc. The particulars of it all are not given.I think we all know that things are changing on this planet. Hang onto your hat. It's just begun. Things will change relatively fast from her on in every manner, politically, weather wise, morally (for the worse), religiously, ( Islam prevailing for the short haul, Vatican City soon burns in an hour, leaving Muslims allied with Russia, Germany and North Africa, etc as the super powers, China and the Eastern Orientals waiting in the wind to move West into the Armageddon foray in the end, all ending up slaughtering each other as per Ezekiel 38, 39 etc. ,--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

But your modified concept of God wouldn't be eternal. At best he'd participate in the eventual heat-death of the universe, at worst he's already dead.

Hi Buz, I would like to bring a couple of things to your attention.Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.If God is inside of the universe how did He create it?Why did Paul say:

quote:

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2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

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The atmosphere created in Genesis chapter 1 is the 1st heaven and the 2nd heaven is where the stars and planets are and the third heaven is where God resides. I know that and I won't hold it against you. We can just agree to disagree as long as we agree God did it, in His own way. So.The Bible don't have the word universe in it either does it?It says God created the heavens 1 and 2 it does not say anything about creating the third heaven.Just food for thought and study.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This thread is going down the road of the "Creation theory for light" post. Im not at all as knowledgeable on the Lots as the members here are, but I think this thread is looking to mix the supernatural with the natural. If the universe is open, as ICANT says, then the (from what I gather) 2nd Lot's does not apply(i.e. a cup of hot water in a room eventually becoming room temp?). So, if it means, in order for the universe to be open, then God is overiding the Lots(it seems).If as Buz writes, it's closed, and God is the source that influences it, then his direct involvment in the universe would mean that it's actually open or he wouldnt be able to affect it. If God is affecting the closed system then by definition of the lot's it's not closed, it's open.IOW, If God has an impact on the 'closed" universe then it's really open if he's outside of it affecting it. If you're trying to seperate the two saying God has an influence on the "closed" system then your arguing against yourself and unable to prove it either way. It's mixing faith with science and there's no bridging the gap unless you suspend the Lot's entirely to prove your point.I admit, none of what I said may make any sense and Im not trying to stir anything up here between myself, Buz or ICANT, im just making an observation based on faith and science. It's seems nonsensical.Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.