Bailey writes:
Why do you think it is Him they are running from, as opposed to the serpent?
because Adam says "YOUR voice I heard in the garden, but i was afraid because I was naked, so I hid"
Keep in mind that this was after he had covered his loins, so while he says he was afraid because of being naked, its more likely because he had disobeyed Gods command and was afraid of facing the consequences.
Bailey writes:
What other details are on the surface of the story that may suggest why the couple is still afraid, even after their issue with nakedness is dealt with, when they hear their Father's voice.
that fact that Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent shows that they were trying to escape the responsibility of their actions. How often do children blame the other child when something breaks or someone gets hurt? They do this because they dont want to take the blame and get into trouble. Adam and Eve did the same thing in the Garden.
Gen 1:12-13 "And the man went on to say "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so I ate"...The woman replied: "The serpent, it deceived me and so I ate"
Bailey writes:
The story presents a dichotomy between being unashamed and then being afraid. Considering 'innocence' and 'purity' are not similies for 'unashamed', these additions of innocence and purity seemingly muddle the waters.
Yes, but consider the circumstances of how the situation changed. Gen 2:25 "And both of them continues to be naked, the amn and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed"
then after eating and disobeying Gods law:
Gen 3:6 "Then the eyes of both of them became opened and they began to realize that they were naked, hence they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings...Later they went into hiding from God..."
So they realize they are naked, cover themselves in fig leaves then proceed to hide from God...so the only reason why they would hide now is because they are 'afraid' of facing the music which is shown by them each blaming someone else for their actions. Its like saying 'it wasnt my fault, she made me do it' and vice versa.
Bailey writes:
It would seem safer to suggest that the nakedness the couple perceived between each other was no longer providing a sense of composure and confidence. Do you agree?
composure and confidence in what?
In each other?? or in themselves? or in God???
Bailey writes:
When is the reader informed that Adam and Eve are innocent, pure or unaroused? I am not saying whether they were or otherwise, but I would trust the Bible quicker than your word.
In Gen 2:25 "And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed"
Bailey writes:
at what verse is the reader informed that passionate thoughts are aroused between the Newlyweds ?
Why do they now look at their genitals in a way that makes them cover them? They felt no need to do this previously, so something had caused them to change their view of these body parts...and it made them feel the need to cover them up or hide them in shame.
The people who moses wrote for understood this because their law stated at Leviticus 18:7"The nakedness of your father and the nakedness of your mother you must not lay bare." And it was considered shameful if one was seen naked and in almost all instances where 'lay bare' nakedness is mentioned, its in the context of sexual sins.
Now the only way to commit a sexual sin is to perform a practice that is out of the bounds of God laws on sexual activity. ie sex outside of marriage, same sex relations, beastiality, masturbation etc. All these practices are out of harmony with Gods purpose with regard to sexual activity.
This helps us to understand why Adam & Eve tried to hide their genitals...they had stopped viewing them the way God viewed them and this caused them to feel shame which led them to covering themselves.
Bailey writes:
I suppose if passionate thoughts were aroused between the couple, it may explain something; although I'm not sure what. For example, perhaps such passionate thoughts could explain, seemingly more naturally and much easier, how Cain and Able came about
the only problem i see with this conclusion is that there was nothing sinful about the purpose to 'fill the earth'. Sex was entirely proper within this context as it was Gods purpose. The only thing that this new shame (as seen in their need to cover themselves) is that they were looking at their genitals in a way that was out of harmony with Gods purpose...ie self gratification for instance.
Just as disobedience led them to feel afraid of God, so does their new view of themselves make them feel ashamed...in both instances they had gone contrary to God purpose. This is sin and it made them independent from God and his purpose.
Bailey writes:
So, the couple's supposed fear of a penis and some nipples - caused by some 'bad' fruit - somehow encourages them to be afraid of their Father? Sorry Peg, this doesn't really appear to make much sense
Think about this.
A man and woman are attracted sexually to each other. This is acceptable and natural, nothing wrong with it.
How about this....
A man or woman is attracted sexually to a small child.
Still acceptable?
No because to look upon a child in a sexual way is unnatural.
But this is kind of what happened to Adam & Eve. They began to look at each other in a sexual way that was
out of harmony with Gods purpose. This is why God condemns masturbation for instance because it does not contribute anything to the command to 'fill the earth'. It is purely for self gratification and therefore its out of harmony with how God wants the genitals to be used.
Somehow Adam and Eve knew this, they knew what the purpose of the genitals were and they knew they would use these body parts to fulfill the command to 'fill the earth'
But when they sinned, they began to look differently at their genitals and this caused them to feel shame which led to their need to cover them up.
Just look at the world today with its preoccupation with sex. Sex is everywhere and it is abused and misused. Women use sex as a tool to manipulate men, and men use women as 'tools' for self gratification.
Seriously, its so stuffed up its not funny. We can thank adam and eve for this, they started the ball rolling for us.
Bailey writes:
Can you show me where the couple displays fear towards their Father or not?
Although it would seem excellent if you would, I'm assuming you will not, as you seldomly support your dogma with biblical inference.
Please surprise me ...
I have already given you the verse. Gen 3:10
Bailey writes:
We know that the day that they ate from the fruit they became more like their Father.
how do you know that....in what way do they become more like their father and which verses are you using to show this?
Bailey writes:
Peg wrote:'They lost their relationship with God'
Chapter and verse please ...
Their Father does not abandon them in the bible I am reading.
After God confronts them, he proceeds to pronounce their punishment which includes death. From this point on they cannot be like God for they are now going to die...God does not die. Also as mentioned previously, they no longer view their genitals in the wholesome way the God does, and as 3:10 shows, they have become afraid of God.
quote:
Gen 3:16 To the woman he said "I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy' in birth pangs you will bring forth children and your craving will be for your husband and he will dominate you". And to Adam he said "Because you listened to your wives voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, 'You must not eat from it', cursed is the ground on you account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return"
Bailey writes:
How does that follow? Again, unless one imposes immortality onto the couple within the narrative, we have to assume they began dying the day they were created; just like everybody else the Father ever created.
Do you have biblical inference to suggest immortality or are you just goin' with your gut?
Well when he created them he said 'Be fruitful, become many, fill the earth and subdue it' No mention of death there...but he does mention death here...
quote:
Gen 2:16 'he laid this command upon the man: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must note eat from it, for in the day that you eat from it you will positively die"
So death would result from eating the fruit from that tree. But if Adam had never eaten from the tree then it stands to reason that he would not have died.
Mankind is mortal, it means they 'can' die. But so are the angels. They too are mortal which means they can die, but why dont they?
They dont die because they remain with God carrying out Gods purposes and keeping Gods commands. If Adam had of remained faithful, then he too would have continued to live.
Jesus showed that his life was dependent on the Father just as his disciples lives were dependent on him.
quote:
John 6:57 "Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me"
So Adams life was dependent on a continued existence with God. But when he rebelled he became a sinner and was thus removed from his life source, God. He died as a result and we also die as a result. Thankfully, God has rectified this situation through Jesus.
this is far too long a post for my liking. The points i have not addressed here can be raised again later.
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