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Author Topic:   Atheism Examined
nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 151 of 300 (389385)
03-13-2007 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by anastasia
03-12-2007 11:37 PM


Re: Rebutting myths about atheism
quote:
If nemesis or anyone else claims that they have been atheist, and you deny this, to say that they were simply lapsed Christians...have you ruled out the possibility that you are lapsed at this moment as well?
Sure, I guess. But I don't think so. Anything's possible, I suppose. (sorry, that's the Agnostic in me coming out )
quote:
What if you went back to christianity? Would you say that you have no idea what an atheist is?
No.
The difference is that the way Juggs is describing Atheism is nothing, and I mean nothing, like my Atheism or the Atheism of any Athiest I know personally or through this board.
It would be like if somebody who used to be Catholic claiming that Catholics worship Mary as a goddess. You'd just chuckle and think, "Wow, this person didn't ever really understand Catholicism."
See what I mean?
quote:
You may assume that you won't go back, but that is hardly critical. What is honest is to say that if you ever feel a reason to go back you will. Are you basing your judgement of others on the simple fact that you are STILL atheist?
No.
I'm basing it on the fact that Juggs is misrepresenting all Atheists in all the typical, cliched Christian Fundy ways that we've heard a million times.
His criticisms of Atheism are pretty close to the, "If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys around?" ignorant anti-evolutionary biology crowd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by anastasia, posted 03-12-2007 11:37 PM anastasia has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2200 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 152 of 300 (389386)
03-13-2007 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by anastasia
03-13-2007 3:02 AM


Re: Rebutting myths about atheism
quote:
If you dont believe you dont sweat the past, the mistakes, etc. I wish I could be that way, and not regret my past. It is weird.
Wow.
What makes you think that Atheists don't have regrets?
We regret the pain we cause other people. We just don't fear eternal reprisal.
quote:
If I stopped believing in God, I wouldnt have regrets like I do.
Wow, I say again.
Are you saying that if you stopped believing in god that you would become amoral and your conscience would disappear?
If true, that is a truly terrifying thought.
But it isn't true. You would still have all of those internalized social rules and you would be just as moral as you ever were, maybe more so.
What you would become, probably, is less likely to feel fear and apprehension for your mistakes. You would be less judgemental and more forgiving and kind towards yourself and others. You would become more connected to the people around you. You might even come to know peace and contentment instead of being preoccupied with your own inadequacies and supposed unworthiness.
At least, that's what happened to me when I left the Church.
quote:
That is where people think atheists dont have morals. They think that life would be sweet and painfree without God.
Life got much better for me without God, it's true.
But it is far from pain-free. I just don't invent as many artificial reasons to torture myself now that I'm an non-believer. And nobody can impose their ideas of ways I should mentally flaggelate myself on me anymore, either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by anastasia, posted 03-13-2007 3:02 AM anastasia has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 153 of 300 (389389)
03-13-2007 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Chiroptera
03-13-2007 9:50 AM


The Atheist Way of Life
quote:
Heh. I sure am interested in knowing about this "way of life" I am supposed to be living.
So let's look at that.
A way of life is nothing more than how one carries on day to day.
It would be interesting to look at what an average atheists' "way of life" supposedly is compared to nonatheists. I say average because everyone's way of life is different whether atheist, theist or deist; but we can't hit everything. (remember I'm guessing, so don't take offense.)
We all have to wake up from our long sleep
We all require sustenance (I don't think atheist have any special way of eating)
We all require a means to support ourselves
We are all required to follow the laws of our respective governments, etc.
Atheists would not pray to a god, but some may meditate
Atheists may or may not give money to a church or religion, but they give to charities
They practice fellowship
They get education
They celebrate birthdays, weddings, anniversaries, and accomplishments.
They mourn and bury their dead.
So far I'm not seeing a big difference in this "way of life" from an average Christian "way of life" other than the word God (or other preferred deity) is left out of their meditation, celebrations, fellowship, and burials.
One might say there could be a difference in a crisis situation. Christians would turn to God for comfort. Where does an atheist turn for comfort or is comfort even sought?
I've seen plenty of devout Christians fall apart in a crisis and eventually saying that it is in God's hands, is really the equivalent of accepting that there are some things we can't change and whatever happens happens. Sometimes we have to resign ourselves to that fact. It doesn't mean we can't hope for the best, but we have to accept the possibility of the negative outcome.
So what else is in an average atheists life?
What do theists feel is the biggest difference in the atheists' daily lives aside from lacking a belief in a god?
How do theists feel that lack of belief makes the atheist's daily life different?

Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Chiroptera, posted 03-13-2007 9:50 AM Chiroptera has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 154 of 300 (389391)
03-13-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by anastasia
03-13-2007 3:02 AM


Re: Rebutting myths about atheism
can you honestly say you were christian?
I can honestly say I was, yes.
I wasn't, always. Like a lot of Christians there was a period, there, where I went to church and prayed and stuff but never really "got it"; my paster used to talk about "going through the motions" and I guess that's what I was doing.
But there was a period there where I honestly and truly gave my heart and my life to Jesus. I was a genuine Christian, at that point.
But it's all make-believe. That's what I know, now. I'm not disappointed or angry about it; it's just how it is.
If you dont believe you dont sweat the past, the mistakes, etc.
What makes you think atheists don't have regrets? We're not perfect. Atheism isn't an excuse to do whatever you want, or to treat people like an ass, or to ignore the consequences of your actions.
If anything, the stakes are much, much higher for the atheist - this is all there is. This life is the only chance you'll have to get it right. It's not a test, or a phase, or the qualifying round for some eternal sweepstakes. This life is it. If you don't do it right this time there's no do-overs.
To me, atheists seem to be lacking in so much of the beauty, tradition, culture, etc, of who they are and who their ancestors are.
What makes you think that? The music of Bach is no less beautiful to me, simply because I disagree with Bach about how many gods there are. Indeed, to be an atheist isn't necessarily to reject spirituality. It may surprise you but I'm a fairly spiritual person. I don't talk about that a lot because it's kind of private, and it's not relevant to the things I like to talk about. Things like science. Even arch-atheist Carl Sagan was a deeply spiritual man- he reveled in the glory of the cosmos, made no less glorious for lack of divine authorship.
There's nothing about being an atheist that says you have to reject meaning, or to lose touch with the human spirit. Religion doesn't have the monopoly on tradition, and connection, and history, and art. Or even spirituality. And I think the spirituality of the atheist is purer, better, more focused - because it isn't based on lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by anastasia, posted 03-13-2007 3:02 AM anastasia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2007 2:38 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 181 by nator, posted 03-14-2007 1:17 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 183 by purpledawn, posted 03-14-2007 4:35 AM crashfrog has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 155 of 300 (389393)
03-13-2007 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by anastasia
03-13-2007 3:02 AM


Regrets
quote:
If you dont believe you dont sweat the past, the mistakes, etc. I wish I could be that way, and not regret my past. It is weird. If I stopped believing in God, I wouldnt have regrets like I do. That is where people think atheists dont have morals. They think that life would be sweet and painfree without God.
As a Christian you shouldn't be sweating the past since your sins are supposedly forgiven. The lessons on forgiving others, making things right, and asking forgiveness should have taught you how to make amends and learn from your mistakes, but not carry them around with you.
Not sure what dealing with our mental baggage has to do with morals, but dealing with past mistakes is something that all people have to deal with.
What you've shown is that there are Christians that don't deal with past mistakes any better than some atheists.

Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by anastasia, posted 03-13-2007 3:02 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by anastasia, posted 03-13-2007 7:55 PM purpledawn has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 300 (389396)
03-13-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by crashfrog
03-12-2007 11:42 PM


Re: Rebutting myths about NJ
NJ was a lapsed Christian because he didn't stop believing in God - he just stopped being a fan of God. Isn't that what he told us, himself?
Normally I answer my critics in sequential order, but I'm not sure I will have a chance to answer this before I leave.
The only time I believed in God was when I was very young. I really knew very little about it, nor did I give it much thought. I simply assumed he existed, probably like many of the members on EvC, but rarely did I ever ponder the deeper questions as a child. I can't recall exactly when I stopped believing that, but as a rough estimate, from about fourth grade until I was 24, I was an unbeliever.
I wasn't a lapsed Christian in a backslidden state because I was never a Christian. In fact, I disliked Christianity as much as the next guy for all of the same reasons you dislike it.
Until I had an experience that erased all doubt.

"Somewhere at the back of my father's mind, at the bottom of his heart, in the depth of his soul, there was an empty space that had once been filled by God and he never found anything else to put in it... At the centre of me is always an eternally terrible pain - a curious wild pain - a searching for something beyond what the world contains." -Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 03-12-2007 11:42 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by crashfrog, posted 03-13-2007 12:11 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 158 by RickJB, posted 03-13-2007 12:40 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 157 of 300 (389398)
03-13-2007 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Hyroglyphx
03-13-2007 11:58 AM


Re: Rebutting myths about NJ
I apologize if I misrepresented you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-13-2007 11:58 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-13-2007 2:03 PM crashfrog has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5020 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 158 of 300 (389403)
03-13-2007 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Hyroglyphx
03-13-2007 11:58 AM


Re: Rebutting myths about NJ
nj writes:
Until I had an experience that erased all doubt.
What experience was that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-13-2007 11:58 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-13-2007 2:31 PM RickJB has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 300 (389417)
03-13-2007 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by crashfrog
03-13-2007 12:11 PM


Making my peace
I apologize if I misrepresented you.
No apology necessary. Perhaps I need to apologize to you, though.
I've just been overcome by a strong feeling to make peace with a few members on this board. Over this past year you and I have had our battles. All in good fun, I suppose. After all, there is something beautiful about the sharing ideas. However...
I know I speak bluntly on matters, and, perhaps to a fault. I try and speak respectfully and not to use ad hominem. For the most part, I've probably met that objective. But even still, I think I have come down too hard on some of you in trying to express my beliefs.
Its difficult to not compromise the core of Christ's message without either being too rigid and legalistic, or without being too soft and malleable to the point of compromising it all. Its a dichotomy for me to be sure. People like myself are always teetering on the edge of a knife, between pulling souls close to us, or pushing them further away. Its actually a terrifying prospect now that I've really thought about it. Its an art form to present the gospel properly. I know that though my intentions have always been pure, that I have not perfected that art form. And for that I must apologize.
I have been characterized as a "fundy." I'm still not sure what even means. It seems to have so many variations. If it means that I believe in Yeshua's message wholeheartedly, then I'm an uber-fundy. If it means that I have lapsed in to an uncompassionate man and lost sight of His greater message, then let it not be so.
Allow me now to apologize to anyone if ever I've done a disservice to my own position, or if I've hurt the feelings of anyone on this forum unduly. As you may know, I will be leaving tomorrow for a considerable hiatus. I will be training and moving and trying to resettle in a new city. I don't know when I will be back, or even if I'll be back. (I most likely will) I will use this time to introspect and reflect on things that I can do better. I can't promise that if and when I return that some of us won't still have heated discussions. Indeed, I think it can be healthy as long as we are just playing with ideas. But I will promise is that I take to heart all that I've said in this post. And I will do all that I can to meet that.
It would be a shame for me to leave you all with a bad taste in your mouth for me. If I can walk away from here having planted even a small seed in the minds of some on this forum, then I've met my objective. Whether it one day flourishes or never grows is not for me to know or understand.
I hope and pray that nothing but goodness finds you all. I've had so much fun on here and got to learn a lot about you all and to view your minds. Whether we agree on most things, or disagree on most things, I tip my hat to all and offer my hand in friendship.
I will be around until the end of the day, and perhaps, a little bit of tomorrow. I can't wait to see you all again. Happy debating one and all!!!

    "Somewhere at the back of my father's mind, at the bottom of his heart, in the depth of his soul, there was an empty space that had once been filled by God and he never found anything else to put in it... At the centre of me is always an eternally terrible pain - a curious wild pain - a searching for something beyond what the world contains." -Bertrand Russell

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 157 by crashfrog, posted 03-13-2007 12:11 PM crashfrog has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 160 by crashfrog, posted 03-13-2007 2:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

    crashfrog
    Member (Idle past 1497 days)
    Posts: 19762
    From: Silver Spring, MD
    Joined: 03-20-2003


    Message 160 of 300 (389419)
    03-13-2007 2:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 159 by Hyroglyphx
    03-13-2007 2:03 PM


    Re: Making my peace
    Perhaps I need to apologize to you, though.
    I can't imagine what you think you need to apologize for, at least on a personal basis. I think that you think in ways that prevents you from seeing the truth, and I've called you out on that where I've seen it, maybe in a tone that expressed ire, sometimes.
    But you come here, and you talk about it, so you're clearly engaged in the process, at least. As you came here as a truth-seeker, you leave as my friend.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 159 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-13-2007 2:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 161 of 300 (389422)
    03-13-2007 2:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 150 by Chiroptera
    03-13-2007 9:50 AM


    Re: Rebutting myths about atheism
    I'd also like to hear ICANT discuss the common set of beliefs between my left wing atheistic self and my conservative atheistic father.
    Chiroptera I have no way of knowing what your or your father believes.
    Just as I do not know what a theist believes.
    I have read many of your posts in other threads so I think I know some of the things you believe. Many of which I agree with.
    Heh. I sure am interested in knowing about this "way of life" I am supposed to be living.
    I am not a scientist, or a theologian, nor do I consider myself highly educated. I am just a simple farm boy trying to learn about many things I never had an opportunity to learn growing up so I tend to keep things simple.
    A farmer has a way of life, that is the things he does, the things he believes, the way he conducts himself, literally what he does from the time he is born until he dies.
    I would assume everyone has this. A carpenter, a truck driver, a theist, a communist, and even you a self proclaimed atheist, and anyone else I left out.
    I do not understand atheism that is why I am reading and posting and asking questions.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 150 by Chiroptera, posted 03-13-2007 9:50 AM Chiroptera has not replied

    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 162 of 300 (389424)
    03-13-2007 2:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 158 by RickJB
    03-13-2007 12:40 PM


    My own road to Damascus
    What experience was that?
    Its kind of a long story, so if you don't mind me copying and pasting from a post I made a few months ago, it should explain the moment I'm speaking about that led up to my conversion.
    [quote]If you will oblige me, I will post what I have previously written as a prologue in a book that I started, entitled, "The Road to Damascus: finding life amidst the valley of the shadow of death"
    The inexplicable revealed
    It was February 28, 2002. That night marked the 2nd anniversary of my enlistment into the United States Navy. I was off duty that particular night and on a date with a fiery redhead that I had recently met. We had spent the evening getting to know each other better and having a great time. Nearing the latter portion of our date we found ourselves lakeside, engaged in conversation.
    The conversation seemed to flow effortlessly from one topic to the next with little prompting. From the ebb and flow of the dialogue, the conversation took an unexpected detour towards a topic, that, in the most profound way, would forever change my life. Alexan began to speak about her faith and about biblical principles and events that shaped and molded her character. Little did we know at the time that these topics would resurface countless times, proving to be the bedrock of our relationship. You see, a few months after the fact, I went ahead and married that girl.
    On this night, not only was I attracted to her mental prowess as she spoke of these things, but I was captivated by the conviction behind her faith. She spoke with a certainty unrivaled. I hung on to every word as if it were nourishment to satiate my ravenous hunger for Truth. In her witness she was being used as a vessel of glory. For the first time in my life, I was honestly receptive to the notion of God. To fully understand the scope of impact that this had on me, perhaps a brief synopsis will offer a greater insight to the reader.
    Growing up I was a fairly typical young man. I had parents and a sister that loved me. I was never without anything thing that sustains life, nor lacked any amenities that might have enhanced it. I had a multitude of friends. I was athletic and healthy. I was musically inclined. For all intense and purposes, I had every conceivable reason to be successful in whatever desire I sought to endeavor. Despite all my worldly blessings and achievements, a life once seemingly clear, grew dismal.
      -Oswald Chambers
      This quote, paraphrased from one of the great Christian apologists, has summed up the expression to the truth that has been dumbly struggling in (me) for utterance. As well, I pray that I might be that author who gives to you the expression to the truth that has been been dubly struggling in you for utterance. Where should I begin?
      It seems that for as long as I can remember, I have toiled and agonized with the void. The void: What is it? The void is that curious sense of lack-- that nagging sense that something is missing. It is that place of emptiness inside the human heart. The void is that peculiar intuition that something is amiss and awry, but you aren’t sure why. The void is ever present in all facets of human thought and emotion.
      I found this inequality to be true in my own experience, recognizing that it was separate from intellect-- meaning-- I could not think my way out of this one. The void spurns the logical and any attempt to rationalize it ends with disparaging results. The void is a quandary and a vexation of sorts. The whole of it becomes so much more than just enigmatic-- its completely bewildering. It is the missing piece of the puzzle. As more variables appeared, I was confronted with a maze of obstacles. The twists and turns sent me roundabout until I came full circle from where I had begun. I became the proverbial dog who chases his own tail. What I thought was reality became illusory. What I thought was truth was anything but, and it chastened me.
      From this position it had caused me to consider the philosophical questions that enter our minds from time to time. I have always found it tremendously interesting to ponder the deeper aspects of such notions and to observe how others have formulated their own conclusions. Gaining perspectives on others allowed me to assimilate my views from theirs, through comparison and contrast. It inevitably led me even further into the uncomfortable journey of introspection. Unfortunately, I had no idea what it was that I was looking for and certainly did not know how to find it.
      The only thing certain for me was that intangible pang in my heart. It was haunting and nothing seemed to offer any solace. I searched through vain and temporal avenues seeking restitution, but reprieve from it constantly eluded me. There were no lines of demarcation-- where a boundary began and where it would end. And so, I sought the council of those I deemed to be wise, hoping that they had some insight on life that I was failing to grasp. To my dismay, they were just as lost as I was, and perhaps even more so, because at least I could admit it to myself. These self-help gurus wore pride as a necklace and were blinded by their own convoluted sense of self-worth.
      At this point in time I had heard all the arguments to support this or that religion, or to meditate on this or that philosophy. But it all left a bad taste in my mouth. All that I gave ear to began sounding like a broken record. Today’s discourse was merely a carbon copy of yesterdays rant. The former was a slight gradation from the latter, only with a subtle twist. It was the same mouthful of mouthwash, only now swishing to the other side of the cheek.
      The understanding that I had hoped to find in them was either fleeting or elusive, altogether. Meanwhile, I suffered in quiet desperation as one day melted seamlessly into the next. I am sure those closest to me sensed some level of despair in me, but I doubt they understood the breadth and depth of its extent. Life was grievous to me and what I thought was reality was now faade.
      Growing weary with cynicism, I eventually embraced agnosticism but not before weighing the juxtaposition of religiosity and philosophy - Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Rationalism, and the like. Some of the ism schism caught my eye but they were quickly put to death for a lack of, what?, I do not know. I had been witnessed to by virtually every Christian denomination imaginable. But they were either weak in their faith, and thus, could not present an argument that I was able to dismantle in moments, or I had put up walls in which to shut them out.
      And so, for years, I was at the crossroads of ambivalence, not knowing up from down.
      Something new was in the air as Alex spoke; something new on the horizon had dawned. Ironically enough, I did not feel some resplendent bliss that one might associate with the prospect of someone coming to terms with a fixed belief. Nay, but rather, it was dread. It was insidious and I could feel it in the pit of my gut.
      An uneasy feeling came over me and the hairs on the back of my neck stood on end. The air was stagnate and there was a ringing in my ear. Something knew it had been discovered as I became increasingly aware of its presence and it is aversion to having me hear what she had to say about God. In spite of this, it could not keep me away from Him. The bondages of oppression began to lift throughout the conversation.
      A few weeks after that experience I had opened myself increasingly to the possibility of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent presence. I wasn’t entirely sold out on the notion just yet, but I was allowing the possibility to flourish instead of stifling it as I had done for so many years. I began to listen to sermons on the radio and started to read the Bible with understanding. The scales began to fall off my eyes. I was able to discern that which I could not recognize before. The Word became a catalyst to a consuming flame. I began to pray to God, that if He truly was there, that He would reveal Himself to me. And a few weeks after the walls were let down, it happened...
      I was on a routine patrol getting ready to secure a building on the base. For the life of me, I cannot recall what the sermon was about or what exactly it was that affected me so greatly, nonetheless, like a clarion call, it came to me. Have you ever looked at something for so long that it becomes obscured to you? Have you ever looked at something for so long that you come to realize that it never truly made any sense to you to begin with? Suddenly, and inexplicably, it dawns on you what it is!
      I was sitting in the patrol unit with my jaw to the floor. Incredible emotion swept through me like a shock wave. Emotion washed over me as I was enveloped by grace. I literally fell out of the vehicle, prostrate, in a semi-fetal position. Tears began to well up in my eyes, so heavy and full of burden. And there on the ground, in an unguarded moment, I wept bitterly to my Lord.
      Amid the sobs were guttural groans, interrupted by a feeble attempt to express the ineffable. I begged for intercession and pleaded forgiveness. In that once-in-a-lifetime moment, I understood that which had vexed me for so long. And because I asked, I received. That was the day that I met the Ruach HaKodesh El Shaddai (the Holy Spirit of Almighty God)! After being so sick and tired, of being so sick and tired, I was saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
      Lord if you are willing, you can make me clean.’ Jesus replied, ”I am willing. Be clean.” -Matthew 8:2-3
      In this book I am going to emphatically support the reasons why I believe that not only is there a God, but that He loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son, for my sake and for yours. In so doing, I ask the reader to be patient with me in my attempt to appeal to the Jewishness of the Scriptures. At times, I am going to be using Greek, Latin, Aramaic and Hebrew translations to help capture the essence of the original manuscripts. For the sake of clarity and continuity, all foreign words will be followed by their respective English translation.
      You may be wondering why I chose to write this; especially those of you who grew up with me who are a bit perplexed at my transformation. Let there be no ambiguity as to my reasons for writing this. I must confess that I have ulterior motives behind it. There are certain individuals that I know, whom shall remain anonymous, that the Lord has placed strongly on my heart.
      To put it simply, I feel that for all who do not know the Lord personally are quite familiar with the void. Going through my own personal trials and battling my own demons, I am of the firmest belief that it is directly associated with lacking the knowledge of God-- not mentally, but spiritually. In respects to this, nothing would give me a greater satisfaction than to see them come to the knowledge of God in grace and supplication.
      But, alas, I am met with trepidation and reservation. I am going to be speaking about principles that I do not always keep. In fact, I am a hypocrite, a liar, a glutton, a backbiter, an idolater, a backslider and everything unclean. I could give innumerable instances where I err and fall short to the glory of God. I know, full well, that when left to my own devises, nothing good dwells in me. After all, I have the ability either to glorify His providence or to bring it into disrepute.
      Aside from the distinct fear of misrepresenting my God, I have, as well, an Accuser who constantly derides me and points out all of my faults and reminds me of my failings. Though I lament over this, I cannot let it deter me from pressing on to the goal. My weakness is God’s strength. I must decrease but He must increase. And if bringing myself low exalts Him, so let it be. (Amen).
      For the Law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that, I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I wish not to do, I agree with the Law, that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who does it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me, nothing good lives; for to will, is present in me, but how to perform what is good, I do not find. For the good that I want to do, I do not do; but the evil that I do not want to do, this I keep doing. For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of my sin which is in my members. O’ wretched man that I am! Who will save me from this body of death?” -Romans 7:14-24
      And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of the Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love, which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first, Christ Jesus might show all, longsuffering as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen” -1st Timothy 1:12-17
      OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
      Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
      AdminPD
      Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

      "Somewhere at the back of my father's mind, at the bottom of his heart, in the depth of his soul, there was an empty space that had once been filled by God and he never found anything else to put in it... At the centre of me is always an eternally terrible pain - a curious wild pain - a searching for something beyond what the world contains." -Bertrand Russell

      This message is a reply to:
       Message 158 by RickJB, posted 03-13-2007 12:40 PM RickJB has not replied

      Replies to this message:
       Message 163 by Brian, posted 03-13-2007 2:36 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
       Message 166 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2007 2:58 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

      Brian
      Member (Idle past 4989 days)
      Posts: 4659
      From: Scotland
      Joined: 10-22-2002


      Message 163 of 300 (389427)
      03-13-2007 2:36 PM
      Reply to: Message 162 by Hyroglyphx
      03-13-2007 2:31 PM


      Re: My own road to Damascus
      In fact, I am a hypocrite, a liar, a glutton, a backbiter, an idolater, a backslider and everything unclean.
      But never an atheist.
      Brian.

      This message is a reply to:
       Message 162 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-13-2007 2:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

      ICANT
      Member
      Posts: 6769
      From: SSC
      Joined: 03-12-2007
      Member Rating: 1.7


      Message 164 of 300 (389428)
      03-13-2007 2:38 PM
      Reply to: Message 154 by crashfrog
      03-13-2007 11:16 AM


      Re: Rebutting myths about atheism
      But there was a period there where I honestly and truly gave my heart and my life to Jesus. I was a genuine Christian, at that point.
      Crashfrog you say you were a genuine Christian, could you please give me your definition of a genuine Christian.
      If this is going to get us in trouble please e-mail me.
      Could you also clarify what atheism is in your opinion. As I think it has to be a lot more than not believing in a God but that is just my opinion.

      This message is a reply to:
       Message 154 by crashfrog, posted 03-13-2007 11:16 AM crashfrog has replied

      Replies to this message:
       Message 165 by crashfrog, posted 03-13-2007 2:58 PM ICANT has replied

      crashfrog
      Member (Idle past 1497 days)
      Posts: 19762
      From: Silver Spring, MD
      Joined: 03-20-2003


      Message 165 of 300 (389430)
      03-13-2007 2:58 PM
      Reply to: Message 164 by ICANT
      03-13-2007 2:38 PM


      Re: Rebutting myths about atheism
      Crashfrog you say you were a genuine Christian, could you please give me your definition of a genuine Christian.
      I don't play the game where some Christians aren't "genuine" Christians; I think someone's reasons for choosing to identify with that moniker are sufficient on their own, by definition, to grant them the benefit of the doubt and inclusion in the Christian fellowship.
      I guess what I mean was, there was a time when I was a Christian just because I was raised in a Christian culture; but then, there came a time when I became a Christian because I chose to be one - I made a meaningful decision to follow the teachings of Christ and to recognize the redemption of the Cross, etc.
      I think that playing games about "who's Christian enough" demeans the faith, and I'm dismayed to see a Christian about to do that, like you seem about to. I made a decision to become a Christian. To suggest that I "don't count" because maybe I ate shellfish, or wasn't nice to my sister, or something, isn't supportable by Christian theology.
      Could you also clarify what atheism is in your opinion.
      By definition an atheist is any person who lacks belief in any god. For my own part I not only don't believe in God, I genuinely believe that there's enough evidence to conclude, reasonably, that the majority of versions of God as formulated by the world's religions don't exist.
      On the Dawkins scale, I'm a "6". There's no evidence that suggests the existence of God to me, there's much evidence that suggests that people are wrong when they say "God exists", and I live my life predicated on the assumption that no God exists, but I don't claim the sort of perfect, absolute certainty about it that many theists have for their religion.

      This message is a reply to:
       Message 164 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2007 2:38 PM ICANT has replied

      Replies to this message:
       Message 167 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2007 3:31 PM crashfrog has not replied
       Message 169 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2007 3:46 PM crashfrog has not replied

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