Atheism Examined

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It may surprise you but I'm a fairly spiritual person.

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I feel this way about myself, too, but I rarely talk to anybody else about it.

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They are picturing something like a child will think of when his parents go on vacation. Free for all. But for an atheist, there never were 'parents'. There is no free for all, because in order to survive, we all have to do certain things anyway.

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If you know an atheist, what specifically in their actions makes you think they are acting like a child whose parents are on vacation?Do you feel they go through stop signs or red lights when no cars or police are present?Once we become adults and support ourselves we no longer have that mindset. Atheist would function at the adult level which is what we are supposed to do.

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Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?

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Or even spirituality. And I think the spirituality of the atheist is purer, better, more focused - because it isn't based on lies.

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IMO, religion should have matured to the point of helping people understand the spirituality that you speak of. Unfortunately they got stuck in the past.I feel that spiritually many have matured away from religion. Those who were religious and then went atheist.I do think there are people who are rebelling against their religion and aren't maturing spiritually. They believe but are fighting against it instead of working through it. Maybe they need a support group for that. I do agree that the sprituality without the relgious baggage allows one to be more centered.

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Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?

Thanks, Straggler...here is Synopsis # II: Speaking to you as a Christian, I can only encourage you to be as honest with yourself as you possibly can! Many of our new converts don't really understand the faith and belief that they have taken on! They nevertheless go out and try and engage in mental logic battles with other people whom they don't even take the time to try and get to know. Not only that, but an atheist can be someone who never felt compelled to give the matter a second thought. To the atheist, there is nothing to reject and nothing to conclude. They simply move on with their life and do whatever it is that they fancy. They are no more moral than I am, nor any less. Faith is an everyday phenomenon. I sat in the chair that I am in without testing it to see if it could hold me. I had faith that it indeed could. My faith was based on the rationality of prior experience and the knowledge of the strength of wood. Hardly, Sir! No more than I should renounce my beliefs. We are here to debate each other...not convert each other! Do you know what a Christian is? You already blew it by attempting to tell us what an atheist is. That would be like me attempting to tell a bunch of scientists what a scientist is. What if Jesus comes back as a Muslim? What if Jesus comes back as an atheist?? How much will it take to surprise us? Do any of us really know anything profound?? You seem awfully certain! I believe that you are right, but I have a question. Can you assure any one of us that we either do or do not know your God? If I were an atheist, would you consider it your goal to get me to meet Him or would you be friends with me anyway...kinda like your Cayman Island buddy? Keyword: IF. Keep in mind, however, that it is not necessary to believe anything in order for reality to be true. An atheist may declare that reality is in no need of belief in order to be proven--that reality simply is. I think that her point was that since you said that you used to be Christian, you surely could again be so. Some of us never throw away our old emotional baggage. We are spiritual packrats! *Phat rummages through his hall closet looking for any old deities he no longer uses...* So in essence you cant necessarily see what you imagine. I think I see your point!

Phat, every single thing in the above quote is incorrect.Declaring yourself an atheist is a conscious decision, if you havent given 'it a second thought' you are not an atheist. An atheist is based on faith, how can you take a stance on something if you haven't given it a second thought?Atheists reject theism for many reasons, have a read over the thread again for some of them. We also have many conclusions as well, for example I conclude that anyone who believes in God has something missing in their lives.What do you mean by 'doing whatever they want'? No one can go about doing whatever they want, society would be chaotic if this is true.Finally, atheists are certainly more moral than Christians. Christians only do good deeds because they want a reward from the big guy in the sky. Atheists do not believe in the big guy in the sky so we do good deeds out of the goodness of our hearts, thus we are more moral.Brian.

When did an observation become attempting to define something?Phat please read post 167 Phat I would love you just as I do all my friends yes including those that do no believe like I do, of which many are atheist.On Hitler I would say I am 99% sure.

I am 98% sure that you and Hitler will wind up in the same place.And I am 83% sure that Coke is better than Pepsi. Empty opinions are easy, aren't they? I am also 99% sure that "your God" doesn't exist. Does that make me an atheist?

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That's not faith. That's a conclusion based on rationally reasoned past experiences and your knowledge of the "strength of wood." This all requires actual evidence, which you have--past experience, knowledge of wood, etc.--something faith requires none of. We are? Oh... shame? Perhaps you can consult them for debt relief too? JonicusEdited by Jns, : YEEHOO!-- AH! :-)Edited by Jns, : Oopsicus

I don't think that. I was talking about how religious people might mis-conceive atheism by thinking about it from within their own set-up. And I don't mean all religious people, but maybe those who take part in these polls about trusting atheists.

I have noticed that there are two stances amoung atheists. One is that atheism is faith based, the other is that it is the absence of faith in gods. I still suggest coinage f a new term to denote these positions, rather than the all confusing 'agnostic'. And theists conclude the same, which is why this is not the place for competition, but definition. Maybe part of your def for atheism is 'someone who feels that theists are missing something' but that would be a silly way to characterize motives for theism, and it goes back to the major similarity. Both theists and atheists believe that they have 'found' something. It's about what works for the individual. Any other competitive debate of this nature is merely the same old 'is what we find true, and can we prove it?' argument. None of us can, so there is no reason for any uppity high-ground position. This is your favorite belief. It is just a messy as saying Christians are more moral. You want to be talking about motives, about who has better motives, and not about who is 'more moral'. You are misrepresenting the christian position on doing good, so honestly, you can't be atheist because you think its better than something else. It has to fit you, and it will be better FOR YOU, but you have no knowledge to say that any view is better because none of us do. We all have more in common than not.

I find myself wondering, and this is probably so not OT, whether the spirituality that you speak of is not based on some version of belief in the unseen. Many spiritualities could easily turn into pantheism, for example, or something similar.This is not an accusation. But from the word itself, spirit, there is a connotation of the unseen. There are spiritualities which don't require a higher power as in a god. It would be interesting to find out what spirituality means to other people, although not this thread.Maybe atheism is something to do with disillusionment in organized religion, or in the specific xian God. Not for everyone, but some. I can see that a certain representation of God is not for everyone, and that organized religion can hold one back in discovery of God. I don't think there is an intent to limit God, but somewhere along the way the concept of the Christian God became very fabricated in appearance.Anyway, I am sure that you are aware of alternatives in faith even if some are not. I merely speculate that some proclaimed atheists are latching onto a word that sounds to them like a good landing-place for people who have no denomination. Not in this forum I think, because all here are educated about alternatives. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Both stances are faith based.Declaring that you do not believe in gods is a faith based stance If we took of our faith hat, then we really should ALL be agnostics. These example were just to demonstrate to Phat the errors in his thinking. It isn’t a belief, it is a fact. But they aren’t. Motives and morality are inseparable. No I am not.Tell me this, do you want to be Saved?Brian

When you say "faith", what are you talking about?Faith is such a funny thing. So pernicious that even the most evidence-based, reasonable, rational conclusion can be described as taking something on "faith."

I have recently, thanks to a colleague, begun reading a few of C. S. Lewis’ books, and have found him to be a very readable author.I just flicked the book open to chapter two of his ”Reflections on the Psalms’, and found the following very apt information. “ IF THERE (sic) is any thought at which a Christian trembles it is the thought of God’s “judgement”. The “Day” of Judgement is “that day of wrath, that dreadful day”. We pray for God to deliver us “in the hour of death and at the day of Judgement”. Christian art and literature for centuries have depicted its terrors. This note in Christianity certainly goes back to the teachings of Our Lord Himself; especially to the terrible parable of the Sheep and the Goats. This can leave no conscience untouched, for in it the “Goats” are condemned entirely for their sins of omission; as if to make us fairly sure that the heaviest charge against us turns not upon the things he (sic) has done but on those he (sic) never did - perhaps never dreamed of doing. Pretty big coincidence opening the book at that page. But comforting to know that the great Christian scholar agrees with me that Christians are a selfish lot.Brian

Yes this is pretty much what faith is. Regarding the existence of God, it is an entity that we cannot test for, thus we can only affirm or deny belief in this entity.Atheists don't believe that there is any convincing argument or evidence for the existence of gods, but since we cannot test for it, we need to have faith that our conclusions are accurate.Personally, I have concluded that gods are the invention of the human mind. I have very good reasons for believing this, but outside the realm of faith, I really need to be honest and say that I could be wrong.If a theist stepped outside their realm of faith they would need to conclude the same as I have.However, I have chosen my personal faith as atheism, and it is as much a faith as Islam, Judaism, or any other faith.Brian.