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Author Topic:   Is it Rape or Not
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 7 of 260 (360098)
10-31-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
10-31-2006 12:41 AM


Where is Buzsaw when you need him?
I need to stop forgetting about these passages whenever buzsaw starts ranting about how Islam is a murderous religion grown by rape and pillaging.
Hmm....

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 11 of 260 (360131)
10-31-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taz
10-31-2006 12:38 PM


The word rape is not specifically used here, so we can safely assume that it's not rape. They were probably forced to do dishes, wash dirty clothings, and cook to repent their sins in their former lives. In other words, these were acts of mercy by the conquering army.
That is one of the weaker excuses I have ever heard of.
Why the need for them to be virgins then?
Why kill the little boys and pregnant women?
The indication by the reason for their exclusion from the genocide is ENTIRELY based on sexual purity!

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Taz, posted 10-31-2006 12:38 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Taz, posted 10-31-2006 1:05 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 15 by jar, posted 10-31-2006 1:32 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 16 of 260 (360145)
10-31-2006 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
10-31-2006 1:32 PM


Re: actually pretty practical
What would be more practical would be total genocide. It is still possible for those women that you do save to be rebellious.
The only reason to keep them around is for sexual gratification by the only way the religion allowed, by being ritually pure.
They might not have called it rape back then but we call it rape now.
It also does not change the fact that it was supposidly commanded by God.
It also does not change the fact that such a commandment is in stark contrast to Jesus who did not have a problem with the ritually impure.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 10-31-2006 1:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 10-31-2006 1:55 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 27 of 260 (360210)
10-31-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
10-31-2006 1:55 PM


Re: actually pretty practical
But the indication in the text is that the requirement to be spared from the genocide has nothing to do with suitability for breeding. The requirement is that you be sexually ritually pure. This eliminates an entire group of potential breeding partners that also may not have the victim stigma because of the death of husbands or children.
There is also nothing else in that text to suggest that the reason for including other non-combatants in the genocide was actually to avoid the victim grudge that you described. The only thing we have to go on is the very narrow criteria of being ritually pure.
If I was trying to defend this verse as not talking about rape, the first possibility that comes to mind is simply that being a virgin meant that you were sure not to be an adulturer. Given that that was a sin worthy of death in those times, it would be a sure fire way that you were not going to incorporate any people with that particular offense on their soul into your society. Although that idea can just as easily be refuted by noticing that they only included virgin females in their exception.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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 Message 17 by jar, posted 10-31-2006 1:55 PM jar has not replied

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 Message 29 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 5:58 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 31 of 260 (360214)
10-31-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
10-31-2006 5:54 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
I kind of wonder why the same people who are SOO FERVENTLY against abortion would condone the murder of pregnant women by the sword for being 'seductive' toward israel.
And hey, it takes two to tango.
The hypocricy is absolutly incredible to watch.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 5:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 6:05 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 34 of 260 (360218)
10-31-2006 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
10-31-2006 5:58 PM


Re: actually pretty practical
Yea, and the reason for killing baby boys is because they would grow up someday, somehow magically remember that they were supposed to hate Israel, and make problems.
All your talk about God enacting laws to create restraint on vengeance look pretty silly in light of what the Bible actually says.
I have an 8 month old son. I don't care what morality from what godlet you worship makes slicing his throat okay just because his mom did something wrong. All that reasoning just to make it look like those words out of the Bible are not prescribing the taking of sexual spoils during war; an act all to common in cultures of that time. You would rather us believe that they were actually being merciful.
What horrid, horrid filth. How disgusting.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 5:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 35 of 260 (360219)
10-31-2006 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
10-31-2006 6:05 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
We have a historical and theological perspective which it appears others here lack. We understand the story in context of sin committed by the Midianites, their deaths as a judgment or punishment for that sin, but of course if you have no sense of sin it would be meaningless.
Slaying little children for the sins of their parents is somehow supposed to put the situation in a BETTER LIGHT?
I am going to remember this the next time I talk to a pro-lifer. You know, someone who is going on and on about innocent life and how women who get abortions are playing God.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 6:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 6:35 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 69 of 260 (360296)
10-31-2006 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
10-31-2006 6:35 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
No, I don't think he is. Jesus was vastly different in both word and action.
You can call me a picker and chooser if you like but I prefer a belief that I don't have to play games with in order to reconcile the VAST CHASM of differences in the characterizations of God. Especially when it forces me to endorse genocidal atrocities all in the name of righteous justice.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 6:35 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 71 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 11:08 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 219 of 260 (374027)
01-03-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jaywill
01-03-2007 12:12 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
Browsing that site you linked I cannot find a discussion about the spoils of war. There is some dicussion of slavery. Can you help us by at least pointing to where anything relevant to this discussion is contained at that site?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 12:12 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 5:01 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 221 of 260 (374075)
01-03-2007 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jaywill
01-03-2007 12:12 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
I don't think you are biased to the Bible, I think you are biased to Bible apologetics.
The treatment of the Numbers incident at that site is nothing but ad-hoc defensive crap.
They basically assert that the relevance of the virginity of the captive females had nothing to do with sexuality and they even go as far to say that the killing of the little boys was a humane act of euthanasia. Hardly puts the incident in a holy light.
As you seem quite flippant about sitting here and actually taking on this issue directly, I suppose that other than linking to apologetics we can assume you have no ACTUAL defense?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 12:12 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 4:38 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 238 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2007 12:26 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 226 of 260 (374095)
01-03-2007 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by jaywill
01-03-2007 4:38 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
It is true that the concept of adultry as a sin is present in both the old and new testament.
But this is in contradiction to the actual description of the events in question. Part of the justification for the genocide in Numbers is because the Israelites were seduced. Then as spoils of war they keep only the virgin girls for themselves.
You said nothing in your post to refute my impression, or lack thereof, of the site you linked to. To divorce the virginity of the captive girls from sexuality is pure apologetics not Bible. To claim that the slaughter of baby boys was humane euthanasia is just plain sick especially in light of that fact that the article is trying to justify not only the actions but the god who commanded them.
There is what the Bible says and then there is what pretentious Biblical literalists want it to say. Often these are different. In this case, the literalist mind cannot cope with the fact that such a command to slaughter is unjust or that the description of the human spoils of war is clearly based on sexuality. That is because the literalist cannot seperate God from ancient words on a page.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 4:38 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 227 of 260 (374096)
01-03-2007 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by jaywill
01-03-2007 5:01 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
Thank you I found it.
Also, I don't need a whole night to read and digest a couple of articles. If you want to defend your source, commit and bring the parts you think are most relevant to this forum. If you want to link and run away like it seems you do, then count me out.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 5:01 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 7:11 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 233 of 260 (374295)
01-04-2007 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by jaywill
01-03-2007 7:11 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
Let's start with what I already asked you.
Chapter and verse where God commands the Jews to rape a woman or to rape women?
That should take even less of your time. Right?
Yes in fact it takes no time at all. All I have to do is simply point out that no one has ever made that claim.
The claim is simply that what the israelites did constituted rape and was in fact a byproduct of the genocide endorsed by the god of the OT.
It also takes no time at all to point out that you have yet to substantially respond to a single one of my posts. The entire merit of your posting history thus far can be summed up by a couple of bare links, evasion, and push the buck off on people for claims they never made.
I stand by my claim. When it becomes too difficult for the biblical innerrantist to shoehorn God into the image they so desperately need to feel righteous they turn and run. What is worse is that they turn from biblical inerrantist to biblical god-is-what-i-want-him-to-be-no-matter-what-the-bible-actually-says-ists.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 7:11 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2007 10:44 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 234 of 260 (374296)
01-04-2007 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by jaywill
01-03-2007 7:29 PM


This isn't a chatroom
Sorry to disappoint you but I sometimes leave from my computer to do other things I like to call real life. I can help you find a chatroom if you need instant gratification.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2007 7:29 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2007 7:40 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 239 of 260 (374524)
01-04-2007 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by jaywill
01-04-2007 12:26 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
The Midianite men were killed because they instigated the seduction. They devised a state sponsered mass temptation and sexual seduction of Israel males which was unprovoked. In the scheme they used sex as a weopon.
The passage is very clear on who was spared. What you are doing here is basically a simple regurgitation of your source. In order to defend the genocide you are breaking up the mass killings into 4 groups and then justifying the killing of each group with non-Biblical apologetics.
Non-Virgin were all killed. You justify this by claiming that they were ALL the seductresses of Israel. As far as I know, there is no claim in the Bible or otherwise to support this statement. It is very probable that there were many non-virgin women who did not participate in the seduction of Israel.
Adult men were all killed supposedly because they were a military threat and the masterminds of the temptation.
Babies were killed because .... The only reason I can find at your apologetic site is ad-hoc reasoning that keeping them alive would have placed an undue burden on the Israelites and that killing them was euthanasia. So I guess this is tacit approval of infanticide? There is also no support for this contention in the Bible at all. Nearly all the support for this is extra-Biblical and therefore completely apologetics. Not only that, it is really a disgusting way to try to claim that these killing were justified.
Virgin girls are spared and the only clue we are given to why is because of their virginity! Apparently these captives are valuable enough to the Israelites and that value is directly associated with their virginity. I'll grant that this is not an explicit documentation that these girls were raped but I am sure you can see why it may be implied.
Regardless, there is no charge that the girls were to be raped either from Moses or from God.
Indeed it never says, "and then they raped them" but given the other textual evidence that we have, it is only the modern "inerrantist" Christian who must save some ideal picture of God in order to preserve their faith that ignores the obvious implications of the verses in discussion on this thread.
That is besides the point that to the Israelites, having sex with these girls as the spoils of war would not be considered rape to them. These girls were now their property that were rightfully given to them. They wouldn't call what they did rape and therefore would not have recorded it as such.
You already conceded that no such verse specifies that.
You seem to have a very hard time understand what I say. I made NO SUCH CONCESSION. What I said is that no one has made the claim that there is a verse in the bible that commands rape. There ARE verses in the bible that imply that actions were taken by the Israelites that by modern standards would be considered rape. The scriptures imply that the Israelites forced their captive virgin girls into sexual relationships against their will and only apologists don't seem to get that impression from a direct reading of the text.
On the other hand it may be hard for you and I to imagine that a society's depths of degradation could warrant such a severe quarintine.
Slaughtering babies is murderer. Period. Slaughtering everyone with the exception of some based on aspects of their sexuality is directly suspicious.
You can assume that your ethics exceeds those of the God of the Bible.
I have never made such an assumption and I would ask that you kindly take that statement back. You know both nothing of my ethics or how I compare my ethics to that of the God of the Bible except what I have implied by our discussion of this one particular part of the Bible.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2007 12:26 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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