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Author Topic:   Is it Rape or Not
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 10 of 260 (360124)
10-31-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
10-31-2006 12:41 AM


I have spent years making the argument that the god(s) of the old testament condoned, and sometimes encouraged, genocide, incest, rape, etc. Haven't had much luck...
But specifically, I have pointed this little passage out before. The following explanation is what I got from fundamentalists.
old testament writes:
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
The word rape is not specifically used here, so we can safely assume that it's not rape. They were probably forced to do dishes, wash dirty clothings, and cook to repent their sins in their former lives. In other words, these were acts of mercy by the conquering army.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iceage, posted 10-31-2006 12:41 AM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Jazzns, posted 10-31-2006 12:52 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 13 of 260 (360136)
10-31-2006 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jazzns
10-31-2006 12:52 PM


Jazzns writes:
That is one of the weaker excuses I have ever heard of.
And yet I continue to see this excuse come up everytime I point to this passage.
Why the need for them to be virgins then?
I don't know... something about their virginity... actually, I never understood the whole men attracted to virgins thingy.
Why kill the little boys and pregnant women?
Little boys annd pregnant women can't do dirty dishes, wash dirty clothes, AND cook.
The indication by the reason for their exclusion from the genocide is ENTIRELY based on sexual purity!
Like I said, the fundies' excuse is there is no word like rape or sex in the passage.
Added by edit.
Anyway, I'm gonna sit back and watch how the fundy inhabitants of this forum explain this passage.
Edited by gasby, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 52 by nator, posted 10-31-2006 8:25 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 78 of 260 (360309)
10-31-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
10-31-2006 11:30 PM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
Ok, so let me get this straight. It is fine, and sometimes even necessary, to kill little boys if their fathers have committed some horrific acts because the boys may or may not grow up to follow their fathers' footsteps?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 10-31-2006 11:30 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 79 by Faith, posted 11-01-2006 12:15 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 139 of 260 (360619)
11-02-2006 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
11-01-2006 12:15 AM


Re: Deuteronomy 21 in context
Faith writes:
me writes:
Ok, so let me get this straight. It is fine, and sometimes even necessary, to kill little boys if their fathers have committed some horrific acts because the boys may or may not grow up to follow their fathers' footsteps?
Grow up to undermine or overthrow Israel, yes.
I don't really have much else to say considering how many people are participating. However, I will say this much. I seriously question your intuition to tell right from wrong in a moral sense. I'd suggest you read some books and witness accounts on genocide and other unimaginable acts against specific groups of people in the 20th century. I'm not just talking about certain sections in history books. I'm talking about personal accounts of both the victims and the people committing the acts and how they felt justified to commit those acts.
Other than that, I have nothing else to say. Have a nice life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 11-01-2006 12:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 11-02-2006 2:08 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 202 of 260 (367691)
12-04-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by NOT JULIUS
12-04-2006 1:28 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
pilate writes:
3. God's laws on the wars conducted by his people would even have been viewed by some--even on today's standard--as too soft for the enemy, and put his people to disadvantage. ( Have you heard about the cruelty of the Assyrians, for example? )
I'm curious about this part. By today's standard, would you say that it is not uncommon for an invading army to kill every man, woman, child, toddler, and baby? I guess what I'm trying to say is should the U.S. Army have killed every Iraqi man, woman, child, toddler, and baby when it invaded Iraq?
First the background. God is love, he is just, merciful, but he is also practical. If we read the Scriptures--way back into Genesis-- before the above citations, God was already determined to exterminate the Canaanites and other surrounding countries. ( Some scientists after discovering the horrible things being done by these people even questioned: 'why did not God destroy these people earlier'? They were amazed, aghast, offended by what they discovered: children burned as sacrifices, rampant sexual urges, cruelty, etc. )
I can understand that the men and women were committing sin and therefore must be punished. But what about the 2 year olds and the 1 year olds? Were the 2 year old toddlers raping the 1 year olds?
With that background, we begin to understand how God wanted his justice done and balance it with mercy. So, Numbers 31:17-18 He ordered the killings of everyone except virgins whom the Israelites found beautiful.
I know this is a little off-topic, but aside from the virgins there were also the little boys that barely knew how to walk. I'm sorry for being dense, but I simply don't understand how it was merciful on god's part to have the killing of those little toddlers and babies. I can understand that the 5 year olds could commit sins, but what about the 2 year olds and the 1 year olds?

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-04-2006 1:28 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

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 Message 203 by Brian, posted 12-04-2006 3:59 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 204 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-04-2006 4:29 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 205 of 260 (367705)
12-04-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by NOT JULIUS
12-04-2006 4:29 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
pilate writes:
Hard realities of war, eh? Thousands of old men and women, 1 year old babies boiled or evaporated during the Hiroshima, Nagasaki bombing, published torture of prisoners in Iraq, the napalm burning of children in Vietnam, the rape of women in the Phil by off duty soldiers. Yes, I guess, God's "article of wars" were much kinder.
Hello? Is anybody home? Those horrific acts (beside the iraq prison thing) were during the conflicts themselves. The people of Canaan were exterminated AFTER they lost the war.
I don't know about you. But, which is more cruel leave them orphans and let these babies fend for themselves, or kill them along w/ their parents.
Perhaps we should commit acts of mercy by killing the today's orphans? There are millions of orphans around the world, and most aren't living comfortably. We should do them a favor and put them out of their misery?

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-04-2006 4:29 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-04-2006 4:49 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 211 of 260 (367719)
12-04-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by NOT JULIUS
12-04-2006 4:49 PM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
pilate writes:
Just when was there a clear boundary of "during" and "after" the war.
After one side has either surrendered or defeated. When Jericho's wall was breached and its people in chains, I'd say that's a pretty clear indication that at least the war with that particular city was over.

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

This message is a reply to:
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