Too much moderation on these boards?

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I think the moderation here is by an large a good thing. Sometimes I perceive bias, but given that its me (or my ilk) who I perceive to be the subject of bias I must exclude my (and my ilks) perception - on the basis of my (and my ilks) self-bias.

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It's not just your "ilk" who perceive a bias in the moderation here, ian.I, too, have noticed that the people on your side of the fence tend to get quite a free rein, especially regarding using abusive, obsfucative language, or just not debating in good faith, compared to those on my side.That's coz the anti-evolution (often also religious) folks are so hard to keep around if they are held to the same standards of behavior as the science-minded folks.Believe me, I've been an EVC member since it was a Yahoo club, and that's how it's always been. Edited by schrafinator, : fixt splelling

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Its not as big a pill to swallow as you might think Schraf.

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{AbE} I mean should you ever get around to considering swallowing it too

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Like I said, and you have just demonstrated, people on your side of the fence are not pressed to debate in good faith, and are allowed to persist in bad habits such as avoidant or obsfucative responses like the above.For years have I observed this.

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With that being said, if most of the mods or most people in any group with some "authority" to do something, or most if not nearly all active mods, are evolutionists, it is natural that there will be a bias in that direction. This is not meant to be an offensive charge to rile anyone up, but I think if all the mods were young earth creationists, you would see a bias in the other direction.

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While it is true that individuals cannot, as you say, ever be completely free of bias, I really must say that my experience as members of boards moderated by both evos and YEC's are VERY different.Evo moderated boards, especially this one, allow a much, much greater diversity of opinion, generally welcome honest and vigorous debate while discouraging flaming.The YEC board experiences I have had are quite the opposite. Poor quality debate, refusal to address points was acceptable, any persistence was considered "rude", censoring and deletion of posts which would be lauded as POTM here are commonplace.Perhaps the "bias" of the two camps is that in the evo's case, excellent debate for it's own sake is appreciated and the very existence and documentation of the beliefs of others, although disagreed with, are not considered a threat to one's own to be erased as it seems to be in the YEC's case.

If I were a creationist, I could now abuse you visciously, break all of the forum guidelines for daring to question me, and be tolerated by moderators.But, as it is, I am not a creationist, so a higher standard of behavior is expected of me.I feel as though such requirements ultimately serve me better than they serve the creationist.

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I'm a creationist and I don't go around viciously abusing people and breaking all forum guidelines

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Perhaps not.Your "sister" does, though.Support of her and silence in the face of her actions is the same as saying what she does.

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I support her because overall I think her a tenacious, brave and skilled debator - although not the only one here on either side of the divide. She is prone to losing her rag at times - but there are none here who attract the same quantity or virulence of oppostion as she - so there is that to take into account.
I stay silent because blood is thicker than water. She is my sister Schraf. One doesn't have to agree in the least with what a family member does in order to stand by them no matter what. As it happens I frequently see those who receive the tongue lashings tramping every bit as much on the spirit of forum guidelines as Faith does.

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Like I said.Staying silent on her views while voicing your support for her indicates to everyone else that you share her views and endorse her way of presenting them.

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As I am sure the other side feels exactly as you do in reverse...

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It matters not what the other side feels is the case, randman.It matters what can be shown to be the material difference in the way the two sorts of camps operate.It is a fact that there is a greater diversity of thought allowed here compared to YEC boards.It is a fact that there is no censorship, editing, banning of members, nor deletion of posts here for no other reason than the moderators do not agree with the views of the poster, as is frequently the case on YEC boards.I have never found a YEC board which actively recruits and allows equal and active participation by evolutionist moderators.

Indeed, I would be very interested in joining a YEC board that is even more fair and even better moderated than this one.Which sites are those, randman?

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How would you know an evenhanded crevo site if it bit you on the arse?

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For starters, it would not censor, edit or delete posts for content.It would actively recruit, and treat as equals, evo moderators.It would have a set of forum guidelines in which good debate practices were encouraged.

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Wuold it imply a policy that there was that there was a two tier approach to dealing with the protagonists on the site in a general, all encompassing way?

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Would it attempt to shut down Robins satirical thread from the outset this year whereas last year his satire was postively encouraged. I looked at it from last year and it was cutting. But this year seemingly its out of bounds. It satires EvC central - as seen by some at EvC. Have these Creo sites something of a Big Brother approach?

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Would it attempt to invoke a "this is what science is" when a "this is what science is" is something of a core issue here?

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I don't know if a YEC site would do these things, and it is a poor debate tactic to try to change the subject, iano.It probably wouldn't get so far as to have any of these perceived problems because it would have censored, edited, and deleted posts for content, banned posters for disagreeing effectively with YECers, exluded evos from being moderators altogether, and it's set of forum rules and guidelines would not concern itself with encouraging good debate practices but would instead be designed to give the YEC mods absolute authoritarian power without any attempt at fairness.

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EvC is not predominantly a science site. It is a Worldview site. Most posts do NOT deal with science. Most posts do not even attempt to.

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Hey, I'd love to discuss science with YECers, but they often seem to avoid those threads because in the EvC science threads there is a requirement to back up one's claims with evidence.You haven't been here as long as many of the people you have been discussing this issue with, Ian. Back before this rule was put into place creationists often (and I mean often) would debate dishonestly, doing the "Gish Gallop": posting question after question, all based upon misunderstandings of science. The questions were answered, the science explained, the math shown, sources, references and links to further reading provided, all to no avail.

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The claim from yourself and Jar would lead the uninitiated to suppose that ALL discussion here was necessarily super-tolerant of the faith alone/fundi view.

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It pretty much is super tolerant of those views.It is also quite tolerant of the abusive behavior and poor debate of the who profess such views.Views and behavior are not the same thing.

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I post on this site for one reason only, the traffic and so likelihood or potential for discussion. By insisting I bring up sites I think have better moderation from the creationist side, you are asking me to engage you on a topic that you are near guaranteed to lose all civility over, engage in the worst name-calling as you have in the past, and if I respond, you will simply ban me.

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So, you see it unfolding like this:1) You provide links to YEC sites which you believe are better moderated than EvC.2) Several of us Evo moderators go over there, join, begin discussion, find out that you are right.3) We are so angry that you, randman, pointed us to these sites with superior moderation that, in a terrible fit of pique, we verbally abuse you.4) You will then be utterly forced to meekly respond to all of this abuse, at which point we will kick you to the curb for even daring to object to your terrible treatment.Is this the inevitable course of events as you see them?Please.Nobody is fooled by this tactic. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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I think in my last banning from a creationist site the reason given was "clearly possessed by satan".

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I was banned from a Creationist site for daring to disagree with the owner/moderator. I was suspended after only a week or so of engaging in normal debate.After being permenently banned, another board made up of people who had been banned by this particular tyrant contacted me to become a member.Imagine, this guy had banned so many people that they could populate their own debate board.I declined to join. I don't believe in living in the past

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Is this a science site?

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Yes, it is.Let's go talk about science, Ian.Pick a thread, and I'll be there with bells on, just let me know.What's that? You don't want to discuss science?Oh, well, I guess I'll have to make due with other conversation.