rat mothers

No, brenna, you know what is really dishonest?They way people around here who claim to be so smart, and know so much about the world, and science (chuckle) and can't even manage to keep the context in which something was said, in context.Then to have someone who has nothing to even do with it, come along and join the parade. I am getting a little sick of it.This whole thread was started on that premise. Schraf took something I said, and the spirit in which I said it, and turn it around, and tried to make me, or what I said look foolish.Then you came along and joined her.The boiling point of water is 212F right? Always right? Given the same conditions. If I don't say it the right way, then it is wrong."A rat's fetus is just as precious to a rat, as a human fetus is to a mother."
This obviously means the same thing right?
"You said that rat mothers feel similarly about their offspring as humans do."Of course not, she changed the meaning to support her side of the arguement. So she could continue to contort the whole thing.How many times has schraf corrected me for calling a fetus a zygote?So since when is a fetus an offspring?Not only that, but the relationship between a rat's fetus, and a human's fetus is almost exactly the same. The only difference is the reasoning us humans do. It's subjective reasoning, and there is no scientific validation for it.Let's rewind the tape, and examine why I said that.It was said because of the picture posted by crash
EvC Forum: anti-abortion folks still get abortions
another attempt at bringing the subject off-topic and out of context.He tried to trick me by showing a rat's fetus, while making appear to be a humans, because of the comparison he was making.To me it made no difference once the truth was told to me, because of the point I was making. So in the spirit, and the context of my train of thought, it made no difference who's fetus he posted. It still doesn't.What I am finding is that the arguement for abortion is extremely inconsistent, and lead by a parade of hypocrites. People only compare apples to apples when it suits their side of the arguement.I would really love to get along with both of you, schraf and brenna.I've taken some leadership courses, and in one of them, I read a book called clear leadership. It talks about the truth of your experience. Many large companys fall to their kness on the inability to communicate this truth to one another.Taking things out of context is that whole process in action. When someone writes somthing in a forum, it can have several meanings sometimes. Instead of picking the one you think it is, why not try to get a clearer answer on what was meant first, then go from there.That would be intelligent conversation in my book.

no. your point is that voters (at least) and legistlators (at most) should be able to determine what is a health-related abortion and what isn't. what crash was demonstrating is that abortion is a medical deicision and that ONLY those with MEDICAL expertise should be making these decisions. since most voters and almost all legislators have NONE of such expertise, they are unqualified.the point that i'm making is that a rat fetus is evolutionarily precious to a rat. without it, the species will not survive. the attachment ends there. thus the same with a human and a human fetus. if i have no interest at this moment in furthering my species, then i have no need to be attached to my fetus.

The context of my point had nothing to do with that. There are just as many with medical expertise that would vote for abortion, as there is against.The decision is not purely medical.You just admited that by stating that you want abortion because you do not want to further the poputlation. That is not a medical decision, but a personal one that plays games with life. So your options are:
1 do have intercourse
2 use protection, and take a risk
3 get your tubes tied
or
4 get an abortion, since it is currently legal. I am against this, as the first 3 should be enough.I can't see the justification, of destroying human life, just because some girl wants a thing between her legs, or some guy wants to his wet. This is not a "right" to me.This is what I learned from my experience with it.Wouldn't you agree that the decisions we make about abortion are a subjective one, not an objective one?

You are arguing that patients should not make the decision whether or not to have an abortion. According to you they have no expertise, and thus are unqualified to make decisions regarding their own pregancy. I didn't realize you were so anti-choice.I have to disagree. I think patients should definitely have a say in whether or not the fetus they are carrying is aborted.

clearly i would invlolve patients in the decision. that's just silly. i'm simply arguing that no one outside the doctor-patient relationship should have anything to do with it.

I'll hold you to the same standard you held RiverRat, and respond to you with your own quote: Stop playing games and being so childish, and admit that you don't think patients should be involved in decisions regarding their own reproductive health, since they lack medical expertise. That was clearly what you stated.(Or perhaps just realize that what is truly childish is taking a statement out of context or a miscommunicated statement, refusing to believe the poster of that statement when they try to clarify, and indeed devoting an entire thread to berating that poster...)

um. no. you're having some trouble with words again. i said right now i'm not interested in furthering the population. right now. i have no business trying to raise a child. i live on $800 a month; i work part time; i go to school full time; i will be in school for the next 6 years easily. right now my interests are in furthering my education. but i have no direct desire to see the human species fail as you seem to suggest. what is it with you and asuming that people who have sex don't use protection and those who have abortions didn't? sometimes shit happens. i use two methods and am lucky enough to have not dealt with that.
besides. unlike men, if we get our tubes tied, it's permanent. thanks to our dear male-centered health system that doesn't even bother to find out women's specific heart disease related needs. nothing that has to do with humanity is objective. but your experience is no more objective or valuable than my experience.you don't have an abortion because you wanted to have sex. you have an abortion because your birth control method(s) failed.
or because your boyfriend started beating you and you couldn't imagine bringing his child into the world.
or because you were raped and your sanity has run away because you are still being occupied by your attacker.
or because your birth control method failed and you are too poor to care for your child (btw. prenatal care is ridiculously expensive so don't tell me about adoption. besides. no one adopts american children anymore and the process is so difficult that your child is more likely to end up in a foster home especially if there's anything 'wrong' with it).
or because you're 16 (or worse) and your fundie parents never taught you how to use birth control and now they've convinced you to have an abortion so that they aren't embarrassed to walk into church with you or picket at the abortion clinic with you. did you know the average age of abortion patients in texas is 18? the AVERAGE!i can honestly say that i don't really have a problem with abortion for any reason because it's not my business to go snooping into other peoples' medical records. no one should even know a woman is pregnant unless she wants them to, much less if she is considering having an abortion. these dedicated, conspicuous abortion clinics are a hazard.nonetheless. way back when, when abortion was illegal, desperate women with no options were forced to seek out 'doctors' who should be called butchers to help them. they often left them bleeding, infected, and often dead. the reason we have legalized this procedure is to prevent the butchering of, usually poor, women with no hope. so now we have it. and people like you want to restrict it and suggest that, clearly, women are not capable of making this important moral and medical decision with no other aid than a doctor. therefore, you want to legislate on this issue. you can argue that that is not what you mean, but clearly, you want YOUR EXPERIENCE to influence the choices of a woman who has never met you and has no knowledge of how trustworthy your advice is. why should she listen to your experience? why not the experience of her doctor?http://www.religiousinstitute.org/Abortion_OpenLetter.pdf

fine, whatever. honestly i think more people should have abortions. quota system. all people who score lower than a certain level on iq and personality tests and of course my personal bitchy spoiled cunt test should be required to have abortions. there, i said it. i support mass, genocidal baby killing. and i want them late term and as bloody and torturous as possible. but don't sterilize them. cause then i couldn't force them to have abortions again.i'm not interested in berating what he said. i'm interested in demonstrating the flaws in his position. if he can't see them and it ends in badgering because of his blindness then so be it. i am totally cool with abortion being a complex moral issue. i'm even cool with it being a baby and not a fetus. i'm absolutely fine with the idea that maybe it's not right to have an abortion for some reasons. we really agree. but the difference lies in that i don't think that i should be able to make that decision for anyone but myself and he does. i'm sorry that he feels he made a mistake once. i've made mistakes too. i gave up on the violin. should every student be forced to master everything they ever pick up? no. and as far as i'm concerned, it's the same thing.

Hey now!!! Everyone should try to get along here In any case... IMO, rats have nothing to do with humans. No one cares when someone kills a rat or aborts a rat fetus.Let's not get all upset over something that doesn't have any relevance whatsoever to human abortion.I think this whole thread might be a red herring

Blindness - sort of like refusing to read/accept RR's clarifications and explanations...My point was that you were not arguing his position. You were arguing an out-of-context quote from another thread, and refusing to let it ago when he tried to explain. In fact, your response to his attempts to clarify his statement was to call him childish, and essentially call him a liar by stating that his clarification was false, a ploy.How is that "demonstrating the flaws in his position"?Perhaps if more posters on this forum tried to engage in discussion rather than dredge up pointless arguements, they would see the kind of common ground you mention, and maybe come to a better understanding and acceptance of each other's position.You'll have a better chance to convince RR of your position with an honest and open discussion, rather than running him down over some quote, and calling him dishonest in the process.

if this were the only discussion i've had with him, i might agree with you.
but the simple fact is that he ignores real debate and jumps on other people with language games. turnabout is fair play.but really. unless you think that non-medically trained legislators should be making decisions for american women, i have no need to discuss this with you.

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If you agree with me, then end the thread.

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Either you are being a smartass or you don't understand my last post.Are you still claiming that rat mothers and human mothers cherish their offspring in the same way, even though rat mothers kill and eat their offspring under certain conditions?

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Let the confusion begin, and the out of context spam wars commence!!!

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That is not what I said

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Your like only smart when you want to be?

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The following is a verbatim quote from your message on the other thread, and it quoted in the OP of this thread:

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A rat's fetus is just as precious to a rat, as a human fetus is to a mother.

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Are you objecting to my changing "fetus" to "offspring" when I paraphrased you?If you object to a restating of your words and believe I have taken them out of context, then please explain exactly how this was done.

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How many times has schraf corrected me for calling a fetus a zygote?

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Er...I don't know. How many?I can't remember ever doing it myself, but maybe that's just me.

testify, sister.