rat mothers

In a now-closed thread, riverrat stated the following in a discussion about abortion:

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A rat's fetus is just as precious to a rat, as a human fetus is to a mother.

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I think it should be pointed out that rat mothers sometimes eat their young offspring. I've done a bit of research to discover the reasons why, and the anwers I found are very telling, I think.If the mother rat senses that there is something wrong with an infant rat, she will kill it and eat it. If the litter is very large, she will kill and consume the smaller, weaker infants. If she isn't lactating, she will kill the infants and eat them all, or she may ignore them because she doesn't recognize them as her own and they will starve to death. If she is in a very stressful situation, such as in an overcrowded area or in close proximity to a snake, she will kill and eat them all, because she senses they will have no hope of survival.Info from here.This seems quite similar to human behavior, except that instead of infanticide and cannibalism, we use abortion.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-09-2006 08:30 AMThis message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-09-2006 08:31 AM

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I think it should be pointed out that rat mothers sometimes eat their young offspring....If she is in a very stressful situation, such as in an overcrowded area...she will kill and eat them all, because she senses they will have no hope of survival.

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Heh. Anyone who has ever owned hamsters as a kid would already be hip to this. (If the tone appears sarcastic, I will assure you that this is not meant to be a criticism.)-

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This seems quite similar to human behavior, except that instead of infanticide and cannibalism, we use abortion.

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Although the extent at which cannibalism has been practiced is a matter of controversey, anyone even slightly versed in cultural anthropology would know that infanticide was (and maybe still is) a very common practice, and was even approved in most cultures. (Again, just some interesting information -- not meant to be a criticism.)

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

Are you saying it's ok to live like rat's?

I realize that it counters any idea that rats find their offspring precious. But this does raise the question rat just asked you. If we can see that mothers can have issues post birth, why shouldn't infanticide be allowed. Heheheh... or cannibalism?

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holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

No, you did.

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A rat's fetus is just as precious to a rat, as a human fetus is to a mother.

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That is the point that is being addressed. It appears you picked a bad method of trying to make a point. Time to admit that, eh?

Along the lines of infacticide, it is interesting that some birds of prey produce two offspring in a clutch every year, even though only one can survive. It was long assumed that the extra offspring was simply a sort of insurance policy in case anything happened to the first. But it actually serves a way of storing food for its earlier hatched sibling. Food is plentiful early in spring, but in short supply later in summer when the young birds are larger and have their greatest food demands. This is the time when the older chick kills and eats its younger sibling. The mother's fitness benefits from this strategy becuase without the second chick as food 'in the ice box', the first one would rarely survive.
So obligate fratricide, with mom as the 'enabler', is completely 'normal behavior' for these birds.

i know that dogs sometimes eat their pups. i imagine it's the same reasoning. this is probably a very common occurrance in mammals. a mother would rather kill her own offspring than allow it to suffer slowly or die at the hands of another. anyone see that mash episode where the mother smothered her baby?it seems to me that pro-lifers have conflated the issue of "personal responsibility" as though it is not a grave responsibility to sacrifice the resources necessary to prevent the suffering of a child born into unsavory circumstances... be it an unwanted child, or oneto be born to a mother who cannot care for it.

I don't think so. The issues schraf presented really have little to do with using abortion as birth control. In every instance the rat actually gives birth and then makes a decision from there on what would be best for her survival, and the babies survival.Most of those decisions cannot relate to us, because we have many methods of feeding children, and protecting them from snakes.

With the avaliability of adoption, why is infanticide necessary?

Hey whats the difference anyway?

Ah, but rabbit mommies resorb their whole litter of fetuses if they're overly stressed or hard up for food. Have you kids not read Watership Down?

Infants don't need to co-opt someone else's uterus for survival, for one thing.I realize that women are invisible to you, so invisible that you can see right through them to the fetus, but come on. At least try to remember that fetuses don't gestate in space, ok?

We are talking about rats.

I meant whats the difference between killing an infant, or killing a fetus?

Is this one of those tasteless jokes?hmmm......about nine months?...you can't here the fetus cry?I give up, whats the difference?