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Author Topic:   Socialism in Venezuela has made illiteracy a thing of the past
nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 65 of 193 (257876)
11-08-2005 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
11-07-2005 5:31 PM


Re: so are the evos here socialists???
quote:
Waiting lists for critical surgery are one reason the US does not follow England and Canada's lead. Compensation for doctors leading to less innovation and quality is another.
But if you provide basic medical care, as in preventative care to everyone, there will be less of a need for critical surgery.
If you have yearly cancer screenings, you can find and deal with, say, skin cancer in it's early stages, when it is a minor outpatient surgery.
If you have no insurance and get skin cancer, you will likely only get medical care when a major operation, radiation, chemo,etc. are all needed to save your life, costing hundreds of times more than routine medical care, and that preventative screening, would have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 11-07-2005 5:31 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by randman, posted 11-08-2005 4:24 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 193 (257981)
11-08-2005 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by randman
11-08-2005 4:24 PM


Re: so are the evos here socialists???
quote:
So maybe providing free preventive care, to a certain degree, is a good idea, if it saves money.
Right.
Like what Canada and England do.
What I want to know, actually, is why Republicans consistently shoot down any initiative which would provide basic healthcare to all American children.
Why is it OK with them, in (by far) the most incredibly wealthy nation in the world, that millions of children go without basic healthcare. (Or enough food, or adequte education, or basic dental care for that matter)
Why it seems much more important for them to give fat tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans instead.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-08-2005 09:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by randman, posted 11-08-2005 4:24 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 12:21 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 193 (257984)
11-08-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by randman
11-08-2005 5:48 PM


Re: so are the evos here socialists???
I was always told that one should never, ever invest any money in the stock market that I was not prepared to lose, as the stock market can, and does, crash on occasion due to unforseen events.
It is, to a large extent, akin to gambling.
Why should Social Security funds be gambled with, in your opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by randman, posted 11-08-2005 5:48 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 12:32 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 193 (257989)
11-08-2005 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Francis Marion
11-08-2005 6:02 PM


quote:
We go to work, not because we enjoy what we do but, because we want the personal reward every two weeks.
Please speak for yourself.
I enjoy my job immensely.
And in fact, it is extremely well known in business (HR, mostly) that monetary reward is not what keeps people happy in their jobs. It is a factor in attracting people to a job but it doesn't keep them content. Things like getting to do what they do best every day, having all of the tools they need to be effective in their work, if their comany's mission makes them feel they are doing worthwhile work, if they feel that their opinions matter at work, do others at work seem to care about them as a person, etc., are what matter to people MORE than money.
These and several other similar facors are consistently rated as most important in retaining employyees in almost every line of work, at every pay scale and across the entire country.
"Making buttloads of cash" doesn't rate high at all in employee retention.
quote:
We work harder when the opportunity for recognition or advancement is present.
I work harder when I need to work harder to get the job done, because acheiving professional, career, and personal goals is rewarding in and of itself.
I also work harder when my coworkers, the other members of my team, need me to, because I know that they will do the same in return.
Then again, I work for a company that places a high priotity on creating a culture in which my needs, as an employee, are met, and that I am happy in my work. This attitude, that there is more to work than a paycheck and that doing a great job at whatever one does is also a reward in and of itself, is not uncommon in my workplace.
quote:
Corporations advertise because they want a larger share of the market. We want, we want, we want.
We are trained to want, to want, to want. Not all cultures, even those with plenty of capitalism, are like that.
Most cultures do not see the point of giant Wal-Marts filled with a lot of cheap, plastic crap that nobody needs. They spend their money instead upon great food, education, art, etc.
Americans are kept in consumer infancy, by training. We never grow up.
quote:
The more we want, the more we are willing to work for it.
...or go into debt for.
quote:
This is what makes a capitalistic society work.
Quantity over quality is not the essence of capitalism.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-08-2005 09:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Francis Marion, posted 11-08-2005 6:02 PM Francis Marion has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 12:39 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 139 of 193 (258385)
11-10-2005 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by randman
11-09-2005 12:21 PM


Re: so are the evos here socialists???
So, why are there millions of whildren who go without healthcare, then?
And why is the Republican congress giving the axe to parts of medicaid and a host of other programs geared towards helping the disadvantaged and then turning around and discussing a tax cut?
Have they no morals at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 12:21 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:43 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 140 of 193 (258386)
11-10-2005 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by randman
11-09-2005 12:32 PM


Re: so are the evos here socialists???
Why should Social Security funds be gambled with, in your opinion?
quote:
Because it's a far better bet that letting Congress spend that money on whatever project they want to.
No, it isn't, and I'll tell you why.
We can vote to get rid of the people in government who do a bad job.
We can't do that with the multinationals. While failed CEO's continue to live high on the hog with their golden parachutes, the people who invested in their company are left with nothing. And that's just the breaks, that's just the risks of doing business.
If you think that milions of people's retirement investments should be played with Vegas style, you must be quite financially secure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 12:32 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:49 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 141 of 193 (258392)
11-10-2005 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by randman
11-09-2005 12:39 PM


quote:
The truth is the quality of goods, food, services has overall greatly increased in my lifetime.
I have to disagree. With the advent of a lot of cheap imported goods, and the declining standard of living of the middle class, the market for more expensive, higher quality goods has declined.
Sure, we have 50 kinds of Pop Tarts in the store now, but all of the local, family owned bakeries went out of business.
quote:
I am not saying the quality of life has improved, and I think that is your point, but you fail to realize that it's not just we have more Walmarts but we also have more coffee bars, more quality restaurants, more quality technology such as the computer you are typing on, etc,...
I would definitely disagree that we have more quality restaurants. In many, many towns in America, the vast majority of restaurants are national sit-down chains, like Applebys and The Olive Garden, or the national and local fast food chains. Local, family owned establishments have been squeezed out.
And this is not an improvement in the quality of restaurants, but a decline.
quote:
So it's not that we have more cheap stuff. We have a lot more quality stuff as well, and much higher quality health care and other services.
Only higher quality healthcare for some. I pay a lot of money for my HMO coverage. I don't get more than 15 minutes of my doctor's time during my annual check up. I have to wait 3 weeks to a month for an appointment for a non-emergency (but still painful) health issue. And prescriptions and office visits, even with the co-pay, are still pretty expensive.
Oh, and service in general has greatly declined in America, that is common knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 12:39 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:47 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 142 of 193 (258394)
11-10-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Mammuthus
11-09-2005 4:06 PM


Re: public schools are socialist and should be discontinued
quote:
Oh yeah, and with the exception of the US, nobody in any of the G7 countries has to even worry about losing their health care and being faced with catastrophic bills after treatment without insurance...they are all covered, and so are their children.
Just think of the freedom people in the US would have WRT leaving a bad employer, or becoming an entrepeneur and starting their own business if they didn't have to worry about losing their health insurance.
(I speak with a lot of fairly wealthy people in my line of work and many, many of them do not like their jobs at all but are afraid to leave them because they have children and they worry about losing the health insurance.)
What an improvement in people's lives (and in the lives of their family) it would effect if they could have that huge, constant worry lifted.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-10-2005 08:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Mammuthus, posted 11-09-2005 4:06 PM Mammuthus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:28 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 143 of 193 (258396)
11-10-2005 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by randman
11-09-2005 4:13 PM


Re: public schools are socialist and should be discontinued
Ever been to rural Appalachia, randman?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by randman, posted 11-09-2005 4:13 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:22 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 154 of 193 (258585)
11-10-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by randman
11-10-2005 11:47 AM


Re: maybe you should drop your HMO?
quote:
Pay out of pocket. It'll be cheaper, and you can pick the doctor you want, and if they don't treat you right, you can go somewhere else.
No, it won't be cheaper. I promise you, we did the math already.
Randman, I work in retail, and my husband just finished graduate school, and we live in a city that has some of the highest cost of living in the midwest. I pay almost $1,000/month in rent for a small one bedroom apartment alone.
Just how much money do you think we have?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:47 AM randman has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 155 of 193 (258587)
11-10-2005 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by randman
11-10-2005 11:49 AM


Re: so are the evos here socialists???
There is far, far less oversight of businesses than there is supposed to be of the Federal government.
Also, what if the market crashes, as we know that it does e ery once in a while?
What then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:49 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 3:36 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 165 of 193 (258673)
11-10-2005 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by randman
11-10-2005 3:36 PM


Well, the Washington Post reports than many prominent investment and economic experts consider the Bush plan to put SS funds into the stock market rather risky.
Since they are experts, and really the only people who are saying it's a rip-roarin' idea are Bush and those within the administration, I think I'm going to trust them.
I really don't think much of the performance of many of the people Bush has appointed.
Here is the full text of the article
"If economic growth is slow enough that we've got a problem with Social Security, then we are also going to have problems with the stock market. It's as simple as that," said Douglas Fore, director of investment analytics for TIAA-CREF Investment Management Group. A spokeswoman said the company has not taken a position on the Social Security debate.
In the next two decades, as elderly populations swell throughout the developed world, retirees will begin withdrawing their savings, selling their financial holdings to raise cash and potentially glutting the world with stocks and bonds. Richard Jackson, director of the Center for Strategic and International Studies' global aging initiative, called it "the great depreciation scenario." Germany's Mannheim Research Institute for the Economics of Aging dubs it the "asset meltdown hypothesis."
That would not be an auspicious environment for young investors opening personal accounts to replace a portion of their traditional Social Security benefits.
"If there isn't an alternative source of demand for those assets, you're going to have a tremendous slowing of growth," said Jeremy J. Siegel, a University of Pennsylvania finance professor who just completed a book on the subject. "The only way to save the financial markets is very rapid growth in the developing world."
Compounding the problem of oversupply, economic growth -- predicted by the Social Security Administration to slow from a historical annual rate of 3.5 percent to a sluggish 1.9 percent -- would hit corporate profits and lower stock prices further, the theory goes. That would cause stock prices to drop, because they are priced as a multiple of a company's earnings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 3:36 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-10-2005 8:53 PM nator has not replied
 Message 167 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:25 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 177 of 193 (258933)
11-11-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by randman
11-10-2005 11:25 PM


Re: the objective experts think it's a good idea
So, if you don't believe any financial experts about anything, then you must also be very skeptical of the President's expert analysts who came up with this plan you seem to think is flawless.
Right?
And you have yet to really address the possible problem of millions of people with their retirement savings invested in a stock market that then crashes.
What happens then, to all of those penniless millions, randman?
What do you do for them? What is the plan when that happens?
(because it is a matter of when, not if)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by randman, posted 11-10-2005 11:25 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:05 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 178 of 193 (258939)
11-11-2005 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by randman
11-11-2005 1:11 PM


Re: public schools are socialist and should be discontinued
Think of the freedom that Americans would have to leave a bad employment suituation or perhaps become an entrepeneur if they never had to worry about losing their employer-sponsored health insurance.
Think of the emotional impact on a family if mom or dad doesn't have to remain at the job they hate for another 15 years because the benefits are so good and they can't risk losing them?
How many people who would otherwise take the plunge and start their own business but are afraid to because they can't afford to pay their own insurance? That probably does a lot to stifle the entrepenurial spirit.
I might even imagine that the number of life births would go up because free prenatal care would be very common (the US ranks very poorly among insustrialized nations in infant mortality). I also think that perhaps the number of abortions might go down if birth control was free, and if the expenses of childbirth, doctor's visits, etc., were totally covered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 1:11 PM randman has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 179 of 193 (258944)
11-11-2005 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by randman
11-11-2005 2:41 PM


you have believed the propaganda, randman
Of course, I predict that you will call all of this information "bunk", and ignore it.
I challenge you to actually support your claims with reputable, verificable sources.
...not that I expect you to, of course.
link
Five Media Myths About Welfare
1. Poor women have more children because of the "financial incentives" of welfare benefits.
Repeated studies show no correlation between benefit levels and women'schoice to have children. (See, for example, Urban Institute Policy and Research Report, Fall/93.) States providing relatively higher benefits do not show higher birth rates among recipients.
In any case, welfare allowances are far too low to serve as any kind of "incentive": A mother on welfare can expect about $90 in additional AFDC(Aid to Families with Dependent Children) benefits if she has another child.
Furthermore, the real value of AFDC benefits, which do not rise with inflation, has fallen 37 percent during the last two decades (The Nation,12/12/94). Birth rates among poor women have not dropped correspondingly.
The average family receiving AFDC has 1.9 children -- about the same as thenational average.
2. We don't subsidize middle-class families.
Much of the welfare debate has centered around the idea of "family caps"--denying additional benefits to women who have children whilereceiving aid. This is often presented as simple justice: "A family thatworks does not get a raise for having a child. Why then should a family that doesn't work?" columnist Ellen Goodman wrote in the Boston Globe(4/16/92).
In fact, of course, families do receive a premium for additional children,in the form of a $2,450 tax deduction. There are also tax credits topartially cover child care expenses, up to a maximum of $2,400 per child.No pundit has suggested that middle-class families base their decision tohave children on these "perks."
3. The public is fed up with spending money on the poor.
"The suspicion that poorer people are getting something for nothing is much harder to bear than the visible good fortune of the richer," wrote columnist Mary McGrory (Washington Post, 1/15/95). But contrary to such claims from media pundits, the general public is not so hard-hearted. In a December 1994 poll by the Center for the Study of Policy Attitudes (CSPA),80 percent of respondents agreed that the government has "a responsibilityto try to do away with poverty." (Fighting Poverty in America: A Study ofAmerican Attitudes, CSPA)
Support for "welfare" is lower than support for "assistance to the poor,"but when CSPA asked people about their support for AFDC, described as "the federal welfare program which provides financial support for unemployed poor single mothers with children," only 21 percent said funding should be cut, while 29 percent said it should be increased.
4. We've spent over $5 trillion on welfare since the '60s and it hasn't worked.
Conservatives and liberals alike use this claim as proof that federal poverty programs don't work, since after all that "lavish" spending, people are still poor. But spending on AFDC, the program normally referred to as welfare, totaled less than $500 billion from 1964 to 1994--less than 1.5percent of federal outlays for that period, and about what the Pentagon spends in two years.
To get the $5 trillion figure, "welfare spending" must be defined to include all means-tested programs, including Medicaid, food stamps, student lunches, scholarship aid and many other programs. Medicaid, which is by far the largest component of the $5 trillion, goes mostly to the elderly and disabled; only about 16 percent of Medicaid spending goes to health carefor AFDC recipients. ("What Do We Spend on 'Welfare'?," Center for Budgetand Policy Priorities)
Furthermore, the poverty rate did fall between 1964 and 1973, from 19 percent to 11 percent, with the advent of "Great Society" programs. Since the 1970s, economic forces like declining real wages as well as reduced benefit levels have contributed to rising poverty rates.
5. Anyone who wants to get off welfare can just get a job.
Many welfare recipients do work to supplement meager benefits (Harper's,4/94). But workforce discrimination and the lack of affordable child caremake working outside the home difficult for single mothers. And thelow-wage, no-benefit jobs available to most AFDC recipients simply do notpay enough to lift a family out of poverty.
Although it is almost never mentioned in conjunction with the welfare debate, the U.S. Federal Reserve has an official policy of raising interestrates whenever unemployment falls below a certain point--now about 6.2percent (Extra!, 9-10/94). In other words, if all the unemployed women onwelfare were to find jobs, currently employed people would have to be thrown out of work to keep the economy from "overheating."
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-11-2005 05:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 2:41 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:01 PM nator has replied

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