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Author | Topic: Islam does not hate christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Or in other words, if they just went ahead and accepted their oppressive occupation then they won't be killed. Did you know that most of my cousins were not ALLOWED to go to school for many years. Why is that Faith? Was keeping children from being educated helping to stop terrorism? This is not propaganda, this is what actually happens from the mouths of people who live there, people I know. You are asking people to condemn the actions of the Israelis on the basis of hearsay and emotion and it is totally one-sided. Really, it would be far better if you left your family out of this altogether because it does nothing but bring emotion into a discussion that requires dispassionate argument and real evidence, which your family's situation is not. Who knows, if the whole story were presented your family might be shown to be in the right, but the whole story is not getting presented here, not even a smidgen of the other side's point of view, and this is unfair argumentation.
Yea. All them hundreds upon hundreds of houses are ALL terrorists weaponse caches and tunnels. Yea right! Is that an objective argument there or just an emotional outburst?
You must have missed the part of my story where my family was attacked by Israeli soldiers for no reason. Would you like to repeat your claim that "All the Israeli military actions are against terrorists?" Are you calling my family terrorists? See how you make this into a battle of emotion? You tell us "no reason" but you don't know that. Would you execute a person for a crime on the basis of an emotional witness' accusation? Be careful, that's how miscarriages of justice occur all the time. That's all you're doing here, making emotional accusations, proving nothing.
Not it is not political propaganda! It is the direct experience of people I know! Innocent Palestinians have been killed or made homeless far more than "terrorists" in the guise of protecting Israel. Thousands of families are homeless in refugee camps. How is making families homeless helping to protect Israel? Were they ALL hording terrorists? You have a hard position to support. I'm not in a position to prove anything with nothing but your feelings for facts, and you are proving nothing whatever. This discussion is completely worthless as it is all nothing but your emotional assertions, and I'm going to end it. No more discussion of Palestine from me. It's gone way off topic anyway. {edited to clean up quote codes)This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 15:20 AM This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 15:24 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Good point, the birth of Jesus was announced by angels. My focus was on the Old Testament and it was on prophecy of future events.
quote: I still need to study the scriptures more carefully to see if this is really prophecy or if the announcement of a fulfillment of prophecy is something else. Have you memorized every word in the scriptures? Neither have I. I've read the entire Bible but since it has come up I don't know in a given case whether a prophecy was given to an Old Testament prophet by an angel or in all cases merely explained by angels. The great majority of OT prophecy was given direct from the mouth of God to the prophet.
quote: I'm not so young myself. This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 15:35 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: OK, I'll go through them later and give my own input on them.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: But what is defined as "defense" may cover a lot of ambiguous ground.
quote: But what is considered to be provocation may cover a lot of ambiguous ground.
quote: But "those who fight you" may be defending themselves in the first place but it could still be called fighting you right? Also isn't there quite a bit of leeway about what "fighting you" means? Simply saying a word against Mohammed can be provocation to war.
quote: And fighting against oppression may be without concern whatever for the causes of the oppression, right? Say, the Palestinian refugee situation was caused by the Arab states but blaming Israel and fighting Israel is just fine anyway, right? Say, the "occupation" is perfectly legitimate but if it causes oppression then it's okay to fight the "oppressors." And by the way, the jargon of "oppressor and oppressed" comes from Marxism. Just wanted to have a more complete answer to the above than I gave before.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
NOTICE: I am no longer responding to posts about the Palestine-Israel conflict. It became a battle about unprovable personal experience and feelings and I don't want to play that game. If somebody wants to try to collect the objective aspects of it in another thread maybe I'll join you.
quote: "Isa" is the legitimate Arabic equivalent of "Jesus", but "Allah" is not the Name of God. If it were ALWAYS used only in its generic or at least popular sense as "God" (which, as I understand it, is not linguistically or historically correct in any case) there would not be a problem, but when it is used as God's Name it is false. [Edit: He is not the same God in any case because he does not have the same character and attributes as the true God who reveals Himself in the Bible and nowhere else.] And of course they don't believe in Jesus as they believe wrong things about Jesus. This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 17:58 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh yea...and it is okay to call God Dios in languages like Spanish but Allah is not the same as the Christian God, its different. That one is fun too. On this forum we speak English, in which language the generic word for God is "God." For an English-speaking Muslim to call God "Allah" instead of "God" is to use a name for God, NOT the generic as is so often claimed. [Edit: And again, the Muslim God is not the Biblical God because he does not have the same character and attributes as the Biblical God.] Time for you to concede something. LONG PAST time as a matter of fact. You should also concede that your personal experience does not amount to an argument as it is only the testimony of a witness in a case in which the other side has no representation. This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 18:26 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Thank you VERY much. The nitpickers around here who pounce on every casual phrase and would "make a person an offender for a word" are getting to me.
quote: Excellent advice, and necessary in this place, that's for sure. I'm going through the posts one by one as I can get to them and am not ignoring the rest of your post, though since it is about Israel I don't know if I will answer it, as it's off topic and I said I was no longer answering those. However, since it is on the objective side of the issue I may get back to it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: See Morte's post on this. You are making an issue out of a mere exaggeration for effect --I shouldn't use the term "always" I admit, but your jumping on it is a red herring, a total waste of time. You are misrepresenting me by claiming I think Israel is blameless as I've said otherwise. I was unable to find the reference I thought I remembered about the girl. What I have found suggests a soldier got out of hand, was being held accountable for murder by the IDF, but was then freed because of a lying witness. A single soldier's misbehavior is not the fault of all Israel, especially when steps were taken to bring him to justice. When do the Palestinians bring their terrorists to justice at all by the way?
quote: That's an ad hominem, sir, which I thought was out of bounds on this site. Though I exaggerate for effect at times, and hope I can stop doing it, you are over the top with exaggerations and misrepresentations.
quote: I'm sure they HAVE gone too far in some circumstances. All I'm doing is answering the absurd TOTAL smear campaign against them that says they never do anything right, they are nothing but evil murderers without any redeeming moral qualities, there are no just reasons for one single thing they ever do. Their side is NOT heard in the media or from any of you except in the briefest and most unsympathetic way, while the Palestinian side is played up with discussions of the pathetic circumstances of each of the victims, all the while ASSUMING perfidious Israeli behavior without the slightest interest in the Israeli side of the story. Lots of denunciations, accusations, fingerpointing, emotional carrying on. How often do we see lingering reports on the experiences of the victims of the suicide bombers as we do the endless reports on the Palestinian victims? No, it's always the Palestinians are "oppressed" they are ALWAYS the victims, their atrocities are always justified by their suffering from "occupation." It's all a put-up and until this is recognized there will never be a way to find out where Israel may commit excesses. [edit: I did it again. READ "ALWAYS" TO MEAN THAT THIS IS THE HABITUAL TYPICAL GENERAL TREND AND DON'T TAKE IT LITERALLY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.] Now I answered another one about the Israel-Palestine flap and I don't want to answer any more. This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2005 20:25 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Slightest hint? No, lists of heinous crimes given without any regard to the other side.
quote: Yes, well I understand that you are judge and jury here and disagree with his being cleared but he was cleared by a legal process and that's justice whether you like it or not. They found the witness to be lying. That's grounds for clearing him whether you like it or not.
quote: It was apparently one Israeli soldier who went nuts, had nothing to do with Israeli policy, as I already said.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: I don't have such a rule. I deal with each point as I see it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Re: No more discussion of Palestine from me
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See how you make this into a battle of emotion? You tell us "no reason" but you don't know that. Would you execute a person for a crime on the basis of an emotional witness' accusation? Be careful, that's how miscarriages of justice occur all the time.
quote: Hardly. Apples and oranges. Many witnesses are always better than one, but if they're all on one side of an issue that's unjust. You always have to hear both sides of a story. In this case we're being asked to condemn the Israelis without considering their side of the story at all. We're asked to take the (one in this case) witness' word for it that there was "no reason" for their action. In fact it is DEMANDED that we take the witness' word for this. The testimony is highly emotional and prejudiced and if we don't agree with the single testimony from this one side we are casting a foul light on the witness' family and so on and so forth. This is classical lynch mob thinking. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE COURTS OF LAW. You CANNOT just hear one side of a story and judge people on that basis.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Straw man. Misrepresentation.
quote: I haven't judged the wisdom of Israel's tactics at all. There may be better ways of stopping the terrorism, I don't know, but that is their aim, to stop the terrorism and that's a reasonable objective. Actually, there is probably not a better way as the terrorism is ideologically generated, is ultimately not about the political situation. Israel has apparently taken the position that force is the only thing that will deal with the terrorism and they may be right, that's a judgment call. There does seem to be an attitude among Muslims that if the opponent doesn't respond with force they're weak and fair game, and that provokes MORE terrorism, not less.
quote: Straw man. Total misrepresentation. Total disregard for the Israeli side of the story and complete misrepresentation of what I've said here. Again, as I say above, there is good reason to think that force works better -- not perfectly but better -- in this situation despite all this kind of rhetoric. The peace efforts have accomplished nothing. In fact the terrorism has often escalated at just those times. This is an ideologically driven war.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This is classical lynch mob thinking. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE COURTS OF LAW. You CANNOT just hear one side of a story and judge people on that basis. ----------I COMPLETELY AGREE! Tell us what reason the Israeli army would have to torch a family's crops and bulldoze their olive trees. Please tell us. Please, please, please. My point has been that the ISRAELI side of the story is not heard. ASK THEM for heaven's sake, don't ask me!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: quote: Thanks Buz. I'm glad you're here for encouragement as nobody else is going to acknowledge any good points I make.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Sorry, I answered out of turn. But it is a straw man. You certainly are making a claim, as in "Do you still beat your wife?" that's no question. But I'll leave you and Buz to sort out the rest since it wasn't my place to answer.
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