Evolution is a basic, biological process

let us not forget the woman who actually took those pictures that determined the structure, but who was left out of the limelight ...http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SCfranklinR.htm

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

there are other surveys that show that 80% of people believe that evolution should be taught while only 32% feel that creationism should be (yes there is some overlap).I don't put any stock in surveys without knowing the process by which they were conducted.

you can set up your preferences so that you receive an e-mail for every reply to any and all of your posts. you access your profile from the top menu line and you will see buttons, one for Receive Discussion Board Email (help) ... (_) yes (_) noyou can also set topics you create to send you an e-mail for every post on that thread (this is one of the check boxes at the startup dialog box ... this is available from the {{edit}} button, and you will see it right under the white post box (for original topics only): [_] Email Notification: Registered users can have email sent to them whenever someone replies.there are some glitches in the system right now, but this usually works. you can then sign on to your e-mail and pick all the links to all the replies ... and enjoy the fray.ps ... welcome.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

and there is some evidence that Darwin's knowledge of Wallace's work impelled him to finally put it all together after procrastinating for several years.have you also read "The SONG OF THE DODO: ISLAND BIOGEOGRAPHY IN AN AGE OF EXTINCTIONS" by David Quammen? (click for amazon.com review)he has a lot of information of Wallace's work and it is a very readable book.I might look your book up, but may be too old to take advantage of it ... another 50 years might be pushing it ...
(link to amazon.com review of the book -- click here)

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

I am aware that the presence of Wallace spurred Darwin's associates to urge Darwin to publish. I often wonder if Darwin hesitated due to the realization that he was about to ignite a great controversy

Sorry about that -- I should have mentioned Ms. Franklin who definitely deserved more credit than she got. Taking the pictures was one of the more difficult partsSoplar

or he hesitated because he was not sure, not knowing the mechanism ...

What a fascinating idea.Consciousness was born in courtship.I think, RAZD, that you are a romantic.

With the number of replies, I think a general reply would be in order. Reviewing all the responses, I believe there are 4 issues

1. I don't think you have yet answered the question as to why biology is unintelligible without evolution
2. Virus/host interactions
3. you [Soplar] appear to be puzzled as to why there should be a Creationist movement in the first place
4. Evolution of the mind

Relative to item 1.It must be remembered that most modern biologists take evolution and a knowledge thereof for granted and assume anyone interested also has similar knowledge; hence, references to evolution are usually cryptic and indirect. Here is an abstract from the 15 October 2004 issue of Science Magazine As I mentioned in my previous response, gene expression (the creation of proteins using the gene as a blue print) is central to both modern biology and the evolution process. If one examines the development of modern biology, one finds that a true understanding of evolution proceeded in parallel.. Perhaps, if you could mention some area of modern biology that isn’t closely related to an understanding of evolution, I could comment further.Regarding item 2 I believe this is basically the general predator/prey problem in which the predator should logically maintain a balance between the number of predators and the number of prey. In practice, this rarely happens. For example The malaria plasmodium would kill all human hosts if it could but human ingenuity prevents that from happening, plus our expanding knowledge of the Plasmodium genome and genetic activities augurs well for the future. On the other hand our inability to limit our numbers may be exacerbated by the elimination of malariaRegarding item 3 Actually, I am not so much puzzled as dismayed. I understand why a creationist movement evolved, I am puzzled/dismayed that it has persisted. Examining the problem is one of my favorite topics.If one examines the development of our understanding of the world around us, one finds three impediments to understanding

1. Things are not what they appear to be
2. Things are not what we want them to be
3. Explanations conflict with revealed truth as promulgated by one or more Gods

In view of these, one notes that the development of our understanding passes through three phases

1. An incorrect explanation of phenomena based upon either incomplete or incorrect observations
2. A correct, empirical understanding based upon sufficiently complete and correct observations
3. A correct theoretically based explanation based upon fundamental principals

For example, our understanding of the visible world passed thru these three phases

1. Geocentric universe: e.g., sun goes around earth as that what it appeared to do
2. Heliocentric solar system with planets in elliptical orbits based upon Tycho Brae's observations and Kepler’s calculations
3. Newton’s and the Einstein’s theoretical explanations

It is well known that the introduction of the heliocentric explanation invoked the third impediment and was suppressed by religious authorities as the explanation conflicted with the revealed truth of the Bible. We have finally gotten past that except for some who cling to the original explanation. You might enter The Earth Doesn’t Move into Google and examine the sites that appear.Similarly the microscopic world passed through phases until the final triumph of quantum mechanics. As the writers of the Bible had little knowledge of the microscopic world, this area of science met little resistanceWe now are between the second and third phases of our development of biology, but many are stuck in the first phase. The obvious reason is the third impediment. My objective is to spread the word as much as possible and help as many people as possible into the second or third phase.Re item 4 Another of my favorite topics. While I don’t have room for an in-depth response, I can sketch most of the situation.First, it is important to note that the neurons in Central Nervous System (CNS) which includes the brain and spinal cord, are quite different than the neurons in the rest of the body. Neurons outside the CNS pass electrical impulses by direct connection between neurons. Evolutions set this up so that pain, muscle motion, etc would travel as quickly as possible.The neurons in the brain are quite different. They are separated by a synaptic cleft and transmit electrical signals by neurotransmitter chemicals that exit the axon from vesicles and contact the opposite dendrite via receptors. This permits the creation of a complex electrochemical information system with incredible capability. The mind is the result of the electrochemical activity in the brain. The fact that some brains have more and more complex interconnections is the reason for differences in intelligence, athletic ability, music ability, etc.As an aside, I am somewhat of a Shakespeare nut and believe that the answer to the authorship question (how could a country bumpkin like Shakespeare write Hamlet) lies in the fact that Shakespeare’s brain was one of those that appears once a century and that could absorb vast quantities of data and create some of the finest plays ever conceived.RegardsSoplar

As I commented in my response yesterday, sexual reproduction evolved to permit the evolution of "higher" life forms. One the highest forms is the human with his/her marvelous brain. Re coutship, it must be remembered that individuals do not need sex to survive, sex just competes with finding food and shelter. On the other hand the species disappears without sex; hence, the devlopment of courtship and sexual attraction in general was a requirement for species survival -- so, just relax and enjoy itSoplar

This is some excellent info. for which I am grateful.However, I don't think it answers the most puzzling question. I understand your point, I think, about the "incredible capability" of these interconnections, but here is the issue:1. Either mentality is an illusion or it is real.2. If it is an illusion what is "having" this illusion?3. If it is not an illusion, then what is consciousness?

a couple of links on the mind development issue and one specifically on the effect of sexual selection on the development of humans:(1) Left Brained Apes (click) Skimpy on real evidence but intriguing.and:(2) Precis of 'The mating mind: How sexual choice shaped the evolution of human nature’ (published April 2000 by Doubleday in U.S., Heinemann in U.K.), by Geoffrey F. Miller (click) The comparison of the human mind to a peacock tail is mine, but this is part of the factual basis for it. (a little hard to read due to the form, sorry).

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there are two aspects of "natural selection" that are involved, one is the raw survival of the individual -- the survival of the fittest part -- and the other is the ability of the individual to mate -- sexual selection.imho, the role of sexual selection has been largely ingnored due to a (victorian?) bias against talking about sex.that sexual selection has been active in the development of humans can be easily observed from the relative sizes of the sexual apparatus. enjoy

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

consciousness has been exhibited by several apes ... probably the best known instance is when a child fell into a chimpanzee enclosure and one of the females protected him and took him near the door for the keepers.another is listed on my previous post.then there are dolphins that make artistic ring bubbles in the water ... http://www.earthtrust.org/delrings.htmlperhaps there is a critical mass of neural connections that once passed results in conscious thought.This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-03-2005 22:44 AM

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

I believe you are quite correct.One item I did not mention in my general reply -- we actually have three brains that evolved at different times and perform different functions. The first or Reptilian Brain, as it is sometimes called since we share it with the reptiles, evolved first, is located at the end of the spinal cord and is resposible for some of our baser behaviour - violence, territory. The second or Limbic (so named as it forms a cup or limbus over the Reptillian Brain) is the seat of emotions. The limbus appeared when mammals evolved -- ever notice an apparently smiling dog? The third or cerebral cortex (cortex means outer surface) is uniquely human and is the seat of cognitive ability. Thus, when enough of the cortex had evolved, humans began to have cognitive abilities.The interaction between these three brains is the reason for much that is puzzling in human behaviour. If time permits, I may try to elaborate, but of course these three brains is another example of evolution.RegardsSoplar

Re item 1. The dicitioanry defines mentality as Obviously a person's intellectual capabilites is rather broad and diverse. It includes the ability to carry on a conversation, read, do mathematics, invent things, write articles, etc. As such it is definitely not an illusion, but very real. It is something that can be measured, although somewhat imperfectly.Regarding item 2, my answer to 1 answers 2.Regarding 3, conciousness appears to have been/is somewhat of an enigma. I don't know why. Consider the difference between death and sleep. If a person is sleeping soundly and one ignors the movement of the chest due to breathing, a sleeping person and a dead person seem quite similar. But of course there are obvious differences. The sleeping person will exhibit brain activity and other signs of life; whereas a dead person won't. A sleeping person's brain may be quite active creating dreams for the sleeping person. Much has been made of dreams, but IMO dreams are nothing but cobbled together bits and pieces from the memories stored in the brain and have no particular meaning (incidently, Shakespeare in Romeo and Juliet expressed the same thing much more eloquently)When a sleeping person "wakes up" the person "regains conciousness" and the person's brain begins to function normally. Hence conciousness is the mental state associated with being awake.RegardsSoplar