Women and Religion - Does it anger you?

The old manuscripts which the various translators used say basically the same as the more conservative translations such as the KJV and the ASV. The ASV used some older manuscripts for the translation, but by and large the texts on women haven't changed. It's men and women both who have changed. Check out the Greek interlinears to the Received text for the KJV and the Alexandrian interlinear for the ASV. I have them both and the translations are quite accurate, especially the ASV which is my favorite and the most literal, imo.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 04-16-2004]

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

It works like this with the Bible:
1. There are numerous texts throughout the NT which admonish the husbands to love their wives as they love themselves. There are, in the Greek, four words for the word love. This love of the man for the woman is the very highest love, the agape love, the same love that motivated Jesus to be obedient to the Father unto the death of the cross for the salvation of the lost world as the sacrificial lamb of God. it is to be an unconditional love, regardless of whether the wife remained healthy, obedient, kind, or even sane.
2. If the husband exercised this high love for the wife, there will be no abuse, no taking advantage, no selfishness and no cruelty.
3. There is no need for a woman to fear submission to this kind of a husband.
4. The NT also teaches that if a man wishes to have his prayers answered he'd better treat his wife right and love her.
5. There is good reason for this chain of command given in the Bible. No social unit, including the family can function smoothly having two presiding heads, i.e. two presidents. The total chain of command given in the NT is God the father, head of Christ, Christ head of the man and man the head of the woman.
6. This setup does not work where either the man or the woman do not observe the Biblical rules. Imo, that's why Muslims are often known to treat their wives unkindly, the prophet Mohammed, husband of 16 of them, no exception who even bedded his youngest at around age 9. The Quran, unlike the NT, allows for harsh treatment of wives. Asgara may get on my case for saying it, but it's the truth. Some of the pagan cultures also were brutal to their wives.

The most content, happy and fulfilled women I know recognize and honor the Bibllical family setup. Why?1. Because rather than this off and on bickering about how things should be done, there's more relatively tensionless discussion in which the loving husband considers and listens to the wishes of the wife. The workable leadership role of that loving husband serves well when a final decision must be made when an agreement can't be reached.2. Generally speaking, men are designed for that leadership role. That's why by and large, men make better generals, presidents and CEOs. Their God given lower authoritative voice and physical strength as well as the metal makeup better fit the husband for this role. Men are, for the most part better at decision making.3. By and large it is the male, both in humans and other creatures that leads and provides, and the one which initiates the romantic and mating process.4. The children are better off when there os one head of the family and less bikering for them to endure from their parents.5. The divorce rate among Biblical (I say Biblical) run homes would be lower where both recognize one as head and final authority. Please note that I am not speaking for Christians in general because a relatively small number of CHristians go by the Bible on this leadership role matter. This, imo, the rate of Christian divorces is also quite high. You have a flawed understanding about the Biblical chain of headship. No place in the Bible is the wife lowered to child status nor in homes which go by the Bible. Your reasoning would imply that the vice president and treasurer of a company are treated like children. That's just not the case at all. As was so with Abraham and Sarah thousands of years ago, there is discussion and compromising dialog between husband and wife when decisions are made. Relatively few businesses operate via partnerships and many of these have more or less silent partners or one who has the greater leadership role. Relatively few partnerships are as successful and workable without more stress than a normal chain of leadership. Most advise against them. There are, of course, exceptions, as also is the case in marriages. I have a friend who's wife is quite a bit more intelligent than he so he leaves more decision making to her. Nevertheless, she, being also a Biblical Christian honors his leadership role to the greatest extent possible. You know, of course, more than I about how that's working out and how many heated arguments there are. I have numerous friends and aquaintences who operate this way, but more often in these setups it's the woman who manages the money and ends up the leader with the wimpy male the one begging like a child for a few bucks to buy the tool or whatever. I've been behind the counter in the retail business for over forty years and I speak from experience on this.Women respect and admire men who assume their God given leadership role and often women despise the wimpy man of the house. Don't let that word "command" throw you. Chain of leadership might be the better phrase. Anyhow I wish the best to you and yours. I don't know and neither do you. LOL if you are comparing this to what is known to go in in most Muslim nations. The Quran teaches that brutality and cruelty to women is fine and dandy and it's author practiced what he preached in this regard.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

The fact is that men have primarily been the generals, the kings, the house heads and the decision makers for thousands of years on this planet. That should tell you something. Get with the age old world wide program, CF.

Don't forget to bring your Bible along when you return.

Btw, thanks Moose, for reopening the thread. We do need to address the issues here in this important and interesting topic. Trying to keep it on topic, but some slight drift is needed to cover the closely related factors.

Lam, my only response to your post is that it's no wonder the world is going to hell in a handbasket so to speak. The revisionists are wrecking the family unit. Crime, disease, suicide, divorce, deviency and imorality are epidemic.

OK Crash, let's analyze your statement.1. "men tend to set ehemselves up as decision makers." = your premise that they are decision makers because they set themselves up as such, not because they ARE better decision makers.2. "not be confused with a greater ability for makeing correct descisions." = don't be confused to think that this means they have a greater ability for making correct descisions.That's my read from your statement. If that's not what you meant, please try not to be so ambiguous in future statements. Gotta hit hay.

No, from the 50s and prior, they're way, way up.

Lam, look at the big picture. The larger century and prior graph will show a slight decline for 20 years or so, but by and large they're all off the wall.

Schraf, madear, listen up to an old feller. There's a whole lot more to happiness and fulfillment than the crotch. With 68 years behind me, I've come to quite acurately recognize a happy and fulfilled woman. It has to do with a lot more than the bedroom, not that that's an important part of it. Maybe I'm not understanding you, but imo, one does not need to be intimate with a woman to get a handle on how fulfilled and happy she is. Yes, there's some who may put on a good front, but that's not so hard to detect either. LOL on that'n. All you need do is watch them on the screen. They're loud. They're demanding. Their angry. They're out on the streets yelling for looser agendas while they're latch key kids are home alone or running the streets. I look at the stats and long term graphs which tell the sad story since mom left the home for the workplace, the career and the public arena.[as]What makes you think there is automatically "on and off bickering" in an equal partnership?[/qs]Simply look at the divorce rate. That tells all. Not quite. As for me and mine, I very often go with the wishes of my dear, dear wife. There are times though when my decision prevails where my wife would rather go another route, but she recognizes my leadership and there's no fight over the matter since we both have established the concept of one president in the family. :cool Btw, I didn't ask for this job. It was mandated on me by my maker. No, that's a very sensible humanistic relationship, the sort of arrangement that humanity has recognized for milleniums and an arrangement which nearly every human organization has found to work best. Yah, Schraf, I'm afraid so. Not a biggie, imo, but part of the role. Ask my two boys who we raised which voice made the greatest impact, the higher or the lower. No Schraf. Both my wife and myself simply can't stand the shrill loud mouths of people like Hilary at a feminist or political rally. We have yet to have a woman hit behind the pulpit. The male voice is designed for that too, imo. Stay home and enjoy caring for the kids and grandkids and you too will be a happy and fulfilled woman. Your home also will be a place where your family will be happy and fulfilled ALL BECAUSE OF YOU!! No, that's so when wifie's voice is raised, hubbies ears will be spared. Mmmm, you don't understand madear. Leadership has nothing to do with intimidation and domination. It has to do with workable relationships, efficiency and keeping the peace. Welllll, nowwww, I dono. I don't think Janet Reno was all that spectacular as attorney general. Likely all it indicates is that Tyson may have eaten too many of those highly female hormoned beefstakes and eggs. No that means the guy should be out and about in the weather doing the hunting, the fishing and the farming, etc and wifie in, around and about the house n kids. OK, I'll and ignore also. Note that I said, "by and large." True or false? If your answer is false, please substantiate. By and large it's always been the male. "These days" are the days of revisionism and the Biblical "latter days" before the wrath of God kicks in and kicks butt. Hang onto your hat. 1. Most Christians are not bonafide born again fundamentalistic Biblical types and have bought into the feminist agenda.2. Last I heard both Christians and other are about equal. I'm talkin bonafide born again Biblical fundamentalist Christians. Without checking, I can guarantee that the Bob Jones University grads, for example, are at a much lower rate.I think most of the rest of your looooooong post has been fairly will adressed in the above. I've taken over an hour to respond to this much, but that's ok. It's all important and your points are well taken. After all, you do (Imo, unfortunately) speak for the majority.

This site tells the sad story with a graph. http//http://www.popin.natur.cuni.cz/html2/publications/ papers/popdev99sk/divorce.pdfI see it's not working. Do a google, divorce rate 1950 2000 and you can find it. Holler if you can't find it. The graph goes steadily upward with a minor 20 year lull.

[qs]Could you please give that link again? That link doesn't work.[qs] Lam, this statement accompanied message 112. Did you try that? I don't know how to bring up a workable link or to reproduce the chart to show it here as you've done with your charts. Get back to me if you still can't find it.

Mmmm, sounds like you woman's not been trained in these skills and please, no military bedmaking in my house. Do you also powder your face and polish the fingernails?

........and how was the first century Roman home leadership and womens role culture different than your Hebrew forbears of that period and before?