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Author | Topic: Did Jesus exist, Part II | |||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Promoted by AdminJar
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tacitus was an historian. If he suspected that the Christian story was untrue, or questionable, I imagine he would have said, "their founder Christus, according to their traditions, was executed during the reign of Tiberius" or something of that sort. That was one of the reasons I suggested that you include a link to what he actually wrote. He was a historian and wrote many, many volumes of the history of the early Roman Empire. The subject he's discussing is Rome in the early years. The quote being discussed is simply an aside in his work. It is not even the subject of the quotation, but only mentioned as one justification that Nero used for his actions. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What makes you think he hated them?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is it pssible you are confusing the report with the reporter?
He is simply reporting the common understanding of an earlier era.
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. The quotaion relates to Nero. The passing comments about Christians is simply an aside to explain Nero's behavior, which was the important content of the passage. Further, he goes on...
Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed. So the import of the section was that Nero was the one being criticized. Further, since he doesn't even bother to mention them anywhaere else, the feeling I get is that Christianity was not something he hated, but rather just so unimportant that it only deserved a passing mention. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
He's bothered enough to refer to Christianity as an "evil" or a "disease." And? He's reporting something that happened about 50 years before. He's reporting on Nero, Christianity was really only mentioned to show that Nero used Christians as one of Nero's justifications for Nero's actions. In addition, I don't hate Christianity, I'm a Christian myself. But for much of Christian history, evil and even desease is actually an apt description. So his use of those terms does not imply that he hates Christians but that he is reporting what the general belief, particularly at the time was. But to go back to the original point of the thread, the inclusion of this quote says nothing about the actual existence of Jesus but only a report that there were Christians (something not in contention). Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There's a link to the whole passage as well as to the rest of the Annals in the OP.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The whole section in question is reall short, so here it is. This way, everyone can see it in context.
XLIV. Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed. Please remember that this is really a trivial and unimportant part of the Annals. The Annals begins in 14AD and carried through to 65AD and consists of 16 Books. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
IMHO it'simportant to remember that at that early a period, Christianity was not seen, and most likely did not see itself, as a separate religion from Judaism, but rather a continuation of the Judaic tradition. The identifier Christian could be as easily reconciled with other sects of Judaism, such as the Saduccees, Pharisees, Samaritans, Sabbatians, Frankists and others.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Secret Mark is an interesting writing, but certainly one of the most controversial.
You can read some of the controversy here. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yes, he belonged to the Pharisees, but remember, Pharisee or Saduccee were far more a political statement than a religious one. But you are absolutely right about Paul being a person who was flexible when he thought it advantageous. He was a master of SPIN and had no problems using anything out there to further his cause.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Does it matter if Jesus existed or not? No, the only thing that matters is if you believe Jesus existed or didn't exist. You are right. It does not matter if Jesus existed or not. As Pope Specklebird said, "To find GOD one must first abandon God himself". Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Actually there are quite a few Professors, even in history, that study the issue of whether there was a historical Jesus.
Here is a list of the Fellows at the Westar Institute. One of the most exciting things I've enjoyed lately has been the Jesus Seminars. They are something every Christian should be following and if there is one in your area, be sure to attend. This message has been edited by jar, 01-15-2006 05:30 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
While you may well feel that way, the readers now have access to the list of the Fellows and can make their own judgements.
While you may consider it a "pathetic joke", it is yet another reflection of the views and scholarship of much of the Christian Communion. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The Jesus Seminar sit around and make guesses about what Jesus must really have said and not said. Actually, they discuss and debate the contents of technical papers prepared and circulated before the meetings. There is no guesswork involved. They publish their findings and it's open for all to examine.
I guess we could do that with you too, not bother with what you think or anybody who knows you thinks, just give our best subjective impression of what JAR must think. ROTFLMAO That is without a doubt the funniest thing I've read here so far. Thank you Faith. A true Gem. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What does that have to do with anything? Many of them are in the History field. Anyone involved in New Testament or Old Testament studies would be a history professor.
But just to keep you happy...
Karen L. King Winn Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Harvard University in the Divinity School This is a really broad spectrum organization, open to all points of view and looking for honest opinions not at all like the phony CreationWiki which is really a bad joke. From the home page of the phony CreationWiki
Contributing editors must believe the universe and life on earth were created by God. We encourage all creationists to get involved with the development of this valuable resource. What a joke. A classic example of the intolerance of such dishonest attempts to pretend there is ANY objectivity in the Creationsit Movement. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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