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Author Topic:   The Prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel
ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 9 of 365 (470858)
06-13-2008 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by starman
06-12-2008 12:47 AM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
starman writes:
How could Daniel have known this in advance?
Well first off Daniel was a very special human being.
Second any man that can lay down in a den of hungry lions, use their body heat to keep himself warm and get a good nights sleep has got special connections.
So the answer is simple somebody or somebeing that knew exactly what was going to happen and when told him in some form.
The odds of him guessing the number of days would be in the neighborhood of 10120.
God Bless and welcome to EvC,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by starman, posted 06-12-2008 12:47 AM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by starman, posted 06-13-2008 2:52 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 31 by lyx2no, posted 06-14-2008 1:09 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 89 by Cparkinson, posted 06-17-2008 1:07 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 304 of 365 (474257)
07-07-2008 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by ramoss
07-01-2008 2:53 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
ramoss writes:
I see people taking vague symbolism, and reinventing what it was meant to portray. When someone sagely quotes this vague symbolism, and insist it means 'thus and thus', sorry, but it isn't clear their claim is valid.
I have yet to see any prophecy that does not do that.
You seem to be looking for the foretelling of a future event that is yet to take place that is stated in the Bible.
I would like to point out a couple.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
If you never die this one is incorrect.
If one day you stand before Jesus in judgment it is true, and you will remember this post at that time.
II Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Peter said the universe was going to melt.
This was predicted over 2k years ago and today we have many scientist that believe that is going to happen. Many don't they think it is going to just run out of energy and get cold.
If the universe doesn't melt then Peter was wrong.
There is one problem with this prophesy, you and I probably won't be on earth to see if it comes true or not.
And there will be plenty trying to explain it away as it happens.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by ramoss, posted 07-01-2008 2:53 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2008 4:35 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 308 by starman, posted 07-08-2008 2:30 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 306 of 365 (474347)
07-07-2008 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by deerbreh
07-07-2008 4:35 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
deerbreh writes:
I think it is more like what skeptics need is an example of something that was predicted actually having occured and someone using the scripture to predict it before it happened
Jesus made the following prediction 39 years before the fact.
Matthew recorded it for our benefit.
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
History records that this event took place in 70 AD.
Jeremiah 9:16 I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.
Jeremiah prophesies that Israel will be scattered and many would die.
Millions of Israelites have died in Germany and other countries.
Jeremiah 31:7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
Jeremiah prophesied God would bring the children of Jacob back home.
For 2000 years they had no home until 1947.
Today they exist in their own country.
Now if you can't be satisfied with predictions like these you will just have to wait around and see if mine comes true.
I could go out on a limb and predict that in the future we will have a worldwide government. The man that is in charge will make a treaty with Israel and those who want to destroy Israel. The Temple will be rebuilt and Temple Worship restored. After a while He will stand in the Temple and declare himself to be God and that the world must worship him. From Matthew chapter 24.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by deerbreh, posted 07-07-2008 4:35 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by deerbreh, posted 07-08-2008 12:58 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 310 by starman, posted 07-08-2008 2:36 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 313 by ramoss, posted 07-08-2008 8:04 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 316 of 365 (474434)
07-08-2008 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by ramoss
07-08-2008 8:04 AM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
ramoss writes:
As for the nation of Israel, that is known as a 'self fulfilling prophecy'. It was predicted, so people worked to it. On the other hand, it does not meet the criteria of the predicted Israel, since it isn't under a king.
Jeremiah 31:7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
Jeremiah prophesied God would bring the children of Jacob back home.
I don't find anything about a king could you point it out in the passage above.
If you will read the passage real close you will not see where it says how God will bring them back just that He will. They are there Israel is a nation. God's prophesy delivered by Jeremiah is fulfilled. Whether you like it or not.
They will have a King a short time after the world leader I prophesied about stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God and must be worshiped. The king's name is Jesus. Make a note so if you are around you will remember this prophesy.
ramoss writes:
It's funny how Matthew didn't record the prediction of Jesus until after the fact. Have you ever thought that Matthew might have stretched the truth there?
Could you point me to the book with the story about Matthew's resurrection. Since he died in 60 AD and would have had to come back to life to write it after the fact.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by ramoss, posted 07-08-2008 8:04 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Brian, posted 07-08-2008 1:52 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 351 by ramoss, posted 07-10-2008 9:08 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 325 of 365 (474554)
07-09-2008 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by deerbreh
07-08-2008 2:42 PM


Re: Just Silly
deerbreh writes:
As I pointed out earlier, the notion that the motley crew known as the disciples were following Jesus around taking notes is just silly.
I can understand why you would not make such notes.
But why do you conclude from your prospective what someone else would do.
I have folks in my congregation that never take notes.
I have several if I wanted to know what I preached on at any service since I became pastor of the congregation could take their notes and tell you what I preached. If I misstated something the question they asked and how I answered it.
So don't compare what others may or may not do to what you think they would or would not do.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by deerbreh, posted 07-08-2008 2:42 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 12:24 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 326 of 365 (474564)
07-09-2008 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Brian
07-08-2008 2:29 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
Brian writes:
I suspect that he can tell me it is dated long after 70 CE.
I can tell you it was written before Matthews death but you have made up your mind by reading what Atheist and so-called christian's have said about it. So there is no point.
Irenaeus, quoted Papias, a follower of John and a companion of Polycarp as quoted by Eusebius. So Papias existed.
He said Matthew was written in Hebrew. This dates to 60 AD.
Irenaeus (130-200) (Adv. Haer. 3.1.1; also quoted by Eusebius, H.E. 5.8.2): said Matthew brought forth a written gospel in Hebrew while Peter and Paul were preaching in Rome.
That would put it prior to 60 AD.
Origen (185-254) (as quoted by Eusebius, H.E. 6. 25.3-4) , said Matthew a former tax collector and apostle of Jesus wrote Matthew in Hebrew (Aramaic).
Now just brush all that aside and say it is just christian tradition if you want.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Brian, posted 07-08-2008 2:29 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 12:40 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 330 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2008 2:14 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 332 by Brian, posted 07-09-2008 2:26 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 353 by ramoss, posted 07-10-2008 9:23 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 331 of 365 (474590)
07-09-2008 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by deerbreh
07-09-2008 12:40 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
deerbreh writes:
Whom to believe?
Lets see those modern educated very biased scholar's you are talking about is 2,000 years removed from the facts.
Just who was those true believer folks trying to impress?
They were looking for Jesus to come back any day.
Many pooled everything they had so that everybody could have what they needed. Yes they really expected you and I to be here arguing about who wrote what when.
God Bless,
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 12:40 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 2:42 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 333 of 365 (474594)
07-09-2008 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by PaulK
07-09-2008 2:14 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
Paulk writes:
They said that Matthew produced a collection of sayings, written in Hebrew. The Gospel we are talking about is not a collection of sayings and it is written in Greek. Clearly they are not the same document.
So you dispute:
quote:
Irenaeus (130-200) (Adv. Haer. 3.1.1; also quoted by Eusebius, H.E. 5.8.2): said Matthew brought forth a written gospel in Hebrew while Peter and Paul were preaching in Rome.
If Matthew wrote in Hebrew or Armaiac to the audience that Matthew is directed at which is the Jews. Why is it impossible that James, who some credit with translating it into Greek or some other person such as Luke translate if for the early Gentile Church?
But as far as the unbeliever is concerned nothing can be correct about the entire Bible. If it is then that would mean that more of it could be true and then everybody would be subject to the God of the Bible.
So that is fine you have your belief's and opinion's I have mine.
Eternity will be determined by those belief's.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2008 2:14 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 2:48 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 336 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2008 2:54 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 337 of 365 (474598)
07-09-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Brian
07-09-2008 2:26 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
Brian writes:
You do know that the gMat that we have shows no evidence of translation from Hebrew/Aramaic in to Greek, so it is unlikely that we even have the text that Papias allegedly mentioned?
I know there are those that hold that belief and I also know there are those that believe it was translated from Hebrew or Aramaic. What does that prove? Only that different people have different opinions.
Brian writes:
And then you would have to assume that the text we have was exactly the same as the one that 'Matthew' wrote, and we know that there are many variants of all of the Gospels, look at the long ending of Mark for eaxmple.
You mean to tell me science can assume a smear, a pea sized universe that our universe came from existed in an absence of No Thing.
This is a fact we know it is, we are here.
But I should not assume that a book that was said to be written by a particular person which was quoted by others is what I have today.
I have the book also.
Brian writes:
Even if we accept that Matthew wrote a Gospel, there is nothing unusual about biblical books being edited time and again, so there is a possibility that an anonymous author edited the book sometime after 70 CE. But not having any existing texts really doesn't help your case at all.
Somebody might have edited the book after 70 AD but what difference does that make as to what Matthew prophesied?
Brian writes:
But until some good evidence is uncovered that is all this is, tradition.
You do have good evidence, you just don't accept it.
Let's put it this way there is a lot more evidence for the book of Matthew to have been written by the apostle Matthew than there is for that point the universe is supposed to have came from.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Brian, posted 07-09-2008 2:26 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 3:35 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 348 by Brian, posted 07-10-2008 3:49 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 338 of 365 (474600)
07-09-2008 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by PaulK
07-09-2008 2:54 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
Paulk writes:
I dispute the idea that the doocument referred to is the Gospel later attributed to Matthew on the grounds that neither the content nor the language match. And since the content differs it is not possible that the Gospel is a translation of the document mentioned by Iranaeus.
Since you have compared the two documents I would like to know where I could find the one mentioned by Iranaeous.
But then you are only disputing the idea. That way no research, no comparison no nothing just your opinion.
Thanks for your opinion,
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2008 2:54 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 3:42 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 344 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2008 5:30 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 341 of 365 (474603)
07-09-2008 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by deerbreh
07-09-2008 2:42 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
deerbreh writes:
Hmm - They want to believe what confirms their faith as they understand it? Religious dogma is one of the strongest reasons for bias that prevents critical analysis. The history of the church is replete with examples of religious dogma trumping critical analysis.
Yes they really needed to have something to shore up their faith because they had sold everything they had and put it in a pile for everyone to share.
The church history you are talking about is the RC Church. Hunt up the church history of all those that the RCC was burning at the stake for heresies if you want true church history.
Concerning the Scholars, "Why would they be biased?" .
The only unbiased person is dead or comatose.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 2:42 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 5:15 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 342 of 365 (474604)
07-09-2008 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by deerbreh
07-09-2008 3:42 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
deerbreh writes:
Since you first brought up and quoted Iranaeous, shouldn't you be the one to produce the document if needed? In fact, if you aren't even familiar with the document mentioned by Iranaeous, how much is your quote worth? Seems you are quoting information that you know nothing about.
The document Iranaeous quoted does not exist today.
But Paulk had come to his conclusions because the content of the two did not match therefore he must have found a copy somewhere.
Paulk writes:
Message 336 And since the content differs it is not possible that the Gospel is a translation of the document mentioned by Iranaeus.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 3:42 PM deerbreh has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 345 of 365 (474620)
07-09-2008 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by deerbreh
07-09-2008 5:15 PM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
deerbreh writes:
Do you really think that the inability to apply critical thinking to religious documents is restricted to the RC church? What is your basis for thinking that given that the RC church was defending the literal truth of the same documents that you are upholding as literally true?
They were protecting the gospel they wanted the world to have according to their dogma. They were not pleased at all when the first Bible was printed. People could read it and make up their own mind. Just like you made up yours.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by deerbreh, posted 07-09-2008 5:15 PM deerbreh has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 354 of 365 (474733)
07-10-2008 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by ramoss
07-10-2008 9:08 AM


Re: Prophecy after the fact?
ramoss writes:
Well, since I am not in Israel, and neither are the majority of the world's Jewish population, then, that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.
Total Jewish population worldwide as of 2006 12,831,200 of which
5,499,000 was in Israel.
I take that to mean you are a Jew. Since they are the only ones that prophesy pertains too.
But could you point out where He said every Jew would returned.
Jeremiah said: "a great company shall return thither."
At Israel's 60th Independence day the Jewish population of Israel was 5,499,000. Sounds like a pretty good company to me.
1.4 million of the 3 million Jewish people who have immigrated to Israel since 1948 came from Russia and surrounding countries. He did say they would come from the North country.
Lets examine what we got.
Prior to 1947 Israel did not exist as a country.
Israel is a country today and has been since 1947.
Over a million Jews returned from the North country.
A total of 3 million Jews have immigrated to Israel since 1948.
The prophesy was.
I will bring them from the north country. He did.
and gather them from the coasts of the earth, He did.
a great company shall return thither. Over 3 million a great company did.
The evidence says the prophesy has been fulfilled.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by ramoss, posted 07-10-2008 9:08 AM ramoss has not replied

ICANT
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 355 of 365 (474766)
07-10-2008 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by ramoss
07-10-2008 9:23 AM


Re: Matthew
ramoss writes:
Evidence has it that the Gospel of Matthew that we have was NOT written in Hebrew, This evidence is internal to Matthew, because it uses Greek language syntax and word order. There are some aramic idioms, but it was definitely not written in Hebrew.
Lets look at the internal evidence.
What audience was the book of Matthew trying to reach?
If we know that it should help us to understand a little better.
The first 23 verses of Matthew deal with the generation of Jesus Christ.
Generations are very important to the Jews.
There are 77 prophesies in Matthew of which only 2 is mentioned in Luke, concerning the Messiah. The other 75 are not mentioned in any other book.
Much of the teaching in Matthew is unique to the gospel of Matthew.
Matt 5:17-20: Sayings relating to Jesus' view of the Law in relation to the Kingdom of Heaven
Matt 5:33-37: Jesus' teaching about the taking of oaths
Matt 6:1-4: Jesus' teaching about almsgiving
Matt 6:16-18: Jesus' teaching about fasting
Matt 22:1-14: Jesus' parable speaking to Israel's status upon its rejection of Jesus
Matt 23: An extended version of Jesus' evaluation of the Pharisees.
These were teachings for the Jewish people the people of promise.
All these things are important to Jews but most have little or no meaning to a gentile. So the author of Matthew was aiming his book at a Hebrew audience.
Most of the Hebrews in and around Jerusalem at this time spoke Aramaic.
So why would the book be wrote in another language?
The author of Matthew was very interested in the fulfillment of prophecy concerning Messiah.
Only a Jewish audience would be interested in that.
Only the book of Matthew refers to Matthew the tax collector.
What type of a man would have access to the records needed to put down the genealogy of Christ? How about a tax collector that had the records. Who would have had access to the old scriptures to bring forth the prophecies.
Probably somebody who copied it from Mark but wait a minute those prophesies and those unique teaching's above are not in Mark.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by ramoss, posted 07-10-2008 9:23 AM ramoss has not replied

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