In His own image .....

Hi all,I have been following this thread and have a few observations to make.Back in message #7 Drum stated: referring to man's supposed fall from perfection in the garden.According to the bible, your god obviously DID create something non-perfect. If he is omniscient like your good book says, then he knew before hand what was going to happen and he created Adam and Eve anyway.Later on in the thread Stevo again talks about god's omniscience and about man's free will. If I were to believe in the bible, I would have serious questions concerning this contradiction. (in fact I DID when I was a believer).

• Only God can create life
• God is omniscient
• God is omnipotent
• God is infallible
• God is omnibenevolent
• God is just
• God is merciful
• Man was created with free will
• Angels did not have free will

1. If the angels didn't have free will (as stated by Mike Holland in message #20)How could Lucifer make a choice to go against God?
2. If God is omniscient and knows us before he creates us, then he knows what we will be in our lives (agnostic, atheist, christian, buddhist, etc). He also knew what would happen in the garden, or with the world of Noah, or the people of Sodom.
3. If he doesn't know what will happen then he isn't omniscient.
4. If he already knows that I will be agnostic before he allows me to be concieved and born then I have no choice, that decision being made for me before I am born. No free will.
5. If he knows what "choices" I will make and still creates my life, how can he judge my "choice"? He obviously created me for the express purpose of being damned. No mercy.
6. If he did create me just to damn me then he isn't omnibenevolent.
7. If my life came about against God's will, then he is not omnipotent and he isn't the only one able to create life.
8. If he made a mistake in my creation (or the creation of mankind) then he isn't infallible.
9. If he cursed all of mankind (all of animalkind actually)for the mistakes of two people....if he destroyed all living things on earth except for the 8 in the ark and the animals they supposedly took with them....if he destroyed two entire cities because he percieved sin in the adults....then he isn't just or merciful.

I just do not see how believers can literally believe all these things about their god. They are not only contradictory among themselves, but contradict the actions of this god.------------------
Asgara"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hi Iamnotamonkey If, as you state, god knew of my every waking moment in life before I was made, then he already knew I would be agnostic. He would know what the state of my mind would be on my death bed. If he "made" me anyway, knowing in what state I will die, then I have no real choice. How was Eve deceived? The truth was told to her and later verified by your god himself.

---

I do want to say one more thing. Some people think the agnostics on this board and others are arguing from a mindset of being "angry" with god and wanting to prove him wrong. I just wanted to state that as far as I go, I am arguing from a mindset of critiquing a piece of literature. I just wanted to state that in no way am I angry with god, or disillusioned with him. I don't believe he exists. I am discussing a literary figure in a poorly set out book.------------------
Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hi AC,Yes, I have read the bible, and YES my life has changed. I use to consider myself a Christian though I never thought of myself as a creationist.As for my life changing again, I guess an omniscient god would have known that that would happen. Same for someone who dies a confirmed atheist, an omniscient god would know that before the atheist was ever born. Therefore this god created someone destined for damnation.What do my children have to do with my state of belief or disbelief?
Whether or not my children were destined to believe in your god says nothing about the reasons for my being here.I have raised my children to question everything and search for their own answers. I have no fear that they will turn into any form of mindless robot. They are creative, intelligent, well-adjusted, moral individuals and strong free-thinkers.As for the bible being so "focused", I don't see it.------------------
Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hi AC,Then why did you bring up my children in a reply to a post concerning my beliefs? And what does Madalyn Murray O'Hair have to do with me?(edited to fix typo)[This message has been edited by Asgara, 08-18-2003]

I follow your train of thought quite well.You aren't following mine though, God allowed generations of people to be damned just so you would be around to be saved?Looks like even more evidence against ID for me. ------------------
Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Hi Mikey, Cute avatar...always knew you were a little delusional LOL. My decendents' beliefs, while maybe a mitagating factor, still have nothing to do with the fact that IF an omniscient, sole creator of life exists, then he created me to be an agnostic. (you keep forgetting that "sole creator of life" thing...if you do not believe your god to have that attribute then I have no problem with your argument)You also keep forgetting that I don't believe in your god...so how can I blame him for anything? I have simply been having fun debating a logical argument. If this particular god...with these particular attributes exists...then freewill can not. If the god you believe in does not have ALL the attributes I have stated in various threads...then we have nothing to argue about.I do believe we are off topic from the OP. If you want to continue this we should take it back to one of the free will threads.

---

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com