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Author Topic:   Must religion be logical?
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 54 of 164 (351826)
09-24-2006 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by New Cat's Eye
08-11-2006 9:53 AM


How about the "I don't know" position? I suspect we would all believe a lot less "crap" if only it wasn't so hard to say "I don't know", and wait patiently for more information. Personally, I suspect that this is the origion for much of religion.
In addition to "I don't know", the idea of degrees of confidence can be very useful.

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 Message 51 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2006 9:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Legend, posted 09-25-2006 8:18 AM Woodsy has not replied
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2006 10:02 AM Woodsy has replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 58 of 164 (352095)
09-25-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2006 10:02 AM


Let's try a little experiment (following Tolkein). I ask: "What do I have in my pockets?" How do you proceed? (hint: I have only things that I commonly do, this is not a setup.)

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 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2006 10:02 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

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 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2006 2:32 PM Woodsy has replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 60 of 164 (352146)
09-25-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2006 2:32 PM


That's what I hoped you would reply. You set out to find out!
Now, suppose I am slow in replying (I will answer soon, not teasing), and you are feeling impatient (as you might, according to your post), how might you carry on?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2006 2:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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 Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2006 2:56 PM Woodsy has replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 62 of 164 (352170)
09-25-2006 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2006 2:56 PM


Sure. What I was getting at is that the next reasonable step would be to consider likely items such as coins etc, then maybe less likely ones. However, you might have varying degrees of confidence, but could never be certain, without checking, as you set out to do. Even in this simple case, a range from "pretty likely" to "I don't know" seems to me to serve. In any case, would you say you would be comfortable stating a "position" prior to checking?
In fact, I had a pen, a grocery bill, and a radiation dosimeter (I use it for my work). I expect you would easily think of the first two, but not the last.
Thank you very much for patiently humouring me in this.

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 Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2006 2:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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 Message 63 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2006 4:00 PM Woodsy has replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 64 of 164 (352189)
09-25-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2006 4:00 PM


It's just that, although one can certainly "consider the possibilities" and be somewhat further ahead, one has to wait for the information to "really know".
I wear a dosimeter while I test things for radioactivity. We test things such as soils, drinking water, rocks etc and even do some simple dating measurements.
best regards

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 Message 63 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2006 4:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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 Message 65 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2006 4:56 PM Woodsy has replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 67 of 164 (352225)
09-25-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2006 4:56 PM


One has to be careful about which red flag one waves at which bull! As an analytical chemist, I'm really, really picky about how observations get to be considered information. However, let's leave that one for another time.

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Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 154 of 164 (380973)
01-29-2007 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Greatest I am
01-29-2007 2:12 PM


Re: Logic
When I refer to systems I refer to the environmental system as a whole, the system of the universe and how it performs perfectly, our earth system that provides perfectly the needs that we have etc..
How do you know the universe performs perfectly? What does "perform" mean in this context? For that matter, I do not see any sensible meaning for "perfect" in this context.
You should note that if we were inserted naked into a random location in the universe, we would have almost no chance of surviving for more than a few seconds. Our chances would be somewhat better on the earth, but they would still be pretty slim. How is this providing perfectly for us?

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 Message 153 by Greatest I am, posted 01-29-2007 2:12 PM Greatest I am has replied

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 Message 156 by Greatest I am, posted 01-29-2007 2:56 PM Woodsy has replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 162 of 164 (381066)
01-29-2007 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Greatest I am
01-29-2007 2:56 PM


Re: Logic
The properties of the universe and of the things in it arise from the laws of physics in various complicated ways. If the laws were different, the properties would be different. I do not see that the idea of "perfection" can be sensibly applied at all.
As an example, consider putting objects of various shapes into a jar. Spherical objects will stack differently from cubical ones, and differently again from pyramidal ones. There is nothing perfect or otherwise about this. It is just the way it is.
You should be aware that it is easy to compose impressive-sounding statements that actually say nothing at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Greatest I am, posted 01-29-2007 2:56 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
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