Charismatic Chaos

Does Genesis then advocate polytheism? Stop and Think. The snake seems to push the issue. Is the snake simply an offstage narrator? A plot device? What was the source of this wrong?
1) The fruit itself
2) Listening to the snake?
3) Disobeying God?
4) All of the above

So we need to study more on this.
How The Serpent Became Satan Notably:

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Introduced as the most clever of all of the beasts of the field that YHWH God had made, the serpent in the Garden of Eden is portrayed as just that: a serpent. Satan does not make an appearance in Genesis 2—3, for the simple reason that when the story was written, the concept of the devil had not yet been invented. Explaining the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Satan would have been as foreign a concept to the ancient authors of the text as referring to Ezekiel’s vision as a UFO (but Google Ezekiel’s vision now, and you’ll see that plenty of people today have made that connection!).

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Tghis supports jars basic argument that satan was but a tool of God...a prosecuting attorney as it were. In that vein, if the snake could be associated as such, the snake was merely doing its job by pushing the humans to their own natural conclusions. A Prosecutor by definition "fully investigates and exposes" a situation. One could argue that eating the forbidden fruit was not Gods best intention but was foreknown to be inevitable. Why would you? The serpent only appears in conjunction with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Surely you won't argue that the serpent is a wise teacher! Its only job is to question authority and encourage A&E to do the same. You likely fully identify with this character trait.The snake stimulated the humans to behave according to their natural inclinations, curiosity being chief.One could argue why the snake was even in the garden. After all, did God not view everything he created as "good"? Critics may argue, however, that in order to allow humans to have free will, all inclinations must be allowed expression in the human mind.

I have trouble believing in the thrust of your basic argument. I believe that God exists, was fully internalized in the character of Jesus Christ, and interacts with humanity.The reason that I believe this is not entirely due to the indoctrination of religious dogma by the churches that I have attended. When I had my "born again" experience, I distinctly remembered feeling a definite change. In addition, I saw confirming behavioral changes of others who had recently "found God through Jesus".So what evidence (subjective or objective) do I now have? Well, to be honest, I observe that though I initially changed quite dramatically and permanently in February of 1993, I was not transformed as much as I would have been taught to expect. In many ways, my old sinful habits and attitudes remain.Critics (apologetic critics) would say that I never wanted to change as much as my conscience may have felt was necessary and that this type of 100% commitment is what is needed and observed far too infrequently in "transformed Christians" today. Nevertheless, I refuse to throw away the idea that Communion with God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit is a myth. You do make an argument that the Bible was written, edited, and redacted by men. I fail to see how anyone could actually call themselves a believer if they attach no reference to other humans interacting with God.I also don't buy into the idea that God is universally described through differing religions. Your argument makes God as being entirely a product of man's imagination and allows no narrative to be preserved as authoritative and indicative of an actual encounter with the Creator of all seen and unseen.I believe that this solo Creator related to humanity--in actuality--through the human character of Jesus Christ. GOD is not understood fully by any (other) human than Jesus. Even as I type this I find that my arguments here at EvC fall on deaf ears. Seems that everyone here either rejects the idea of God, has once experienced it (similar to how I did, they claim) and have thrown the belief away.The reason that I continually argue with you about this stuff is that I fail to see what you mean by claiming belief. I claimed to be a believer due to the subjective experience of internal change and awareness. While I have studied comparative Christian beliefs more than I used to do, I can't really let go of my personal belief that I at one time met God. I don't really think that you ever felt a "transformation" or an internal awareness apart from feeling a sense of responsibility and duty to a cause that your parents supported and which Socratic masters elaborated on and challenged.If true, I then ask myself if Christians who lack such experiences as I had are in any way less authentic or genuine than I and others who would unanimously agree with the transformative "born again" argument are.It's just that if you break the bible down as an entirely human project, and leave GOD defined to be aloof and unknowable, similar to how Islam sees Allah, you are not as close to such a GOD as are those with the transformative experience. \
\Perhaps you will reinforce your reasoning by asking the ongoing question as to how one would know?I hate that question.

It implies that one would never commit to believing based on a strong feeling or experience and would simply act like an observational scientist, forever taking notes and overthinking what they are experiencing. I could see a row of sheep lined up, jar among them. The pastor would invite them all to say the sinners prayer and accept Jesus into their heart. For all but one, tears flow, emotions surge, and contentment which critics would call confirmation bias settles over them as they make their way back to their seats, satisfied that they made the right connection. All but one. Little jar settles in his seat and begins asking questions to himself.

I did note that I felt emotional as well, but how do I know that what I felt was God?

Why must Jesus be the only option? Can't I meet Coyote and Rabbit? I always did enjoy Indian Folklore!

These oldtimers in this church sure seem to be acting sanctimonious and knowledgeable but I don't think any of them has read the bible!

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Thus you believe in the idea that you can fulfill your charge to do what the character in the book told you to do and can feel somewhat reassured that you are at least attempting to fulfill the obligations in this club. Yet you put knowing God out of reach due to your own logical conclusions.

jar writes:

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Really, or perhaps you simply hate my oft-repeated explanation of what I believe?

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Do you find the very existence of my belief unnerving?

No, I don't find disdain for your belief and most certainly support your right to have it. What I dislike is your continual attack and ridicule of the other Christians not in your club who believe the traditional apologetic Romans Road belief and who have unquestioningly accepted Jesus into their heart.

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I don't quite get what you dislike about Biblical Christianity. I suppose I could search through your older EvC posts and get the answer, however.

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The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott

No, I actually like it when you ask questions. I dislike it when you keep telling me I am off-topic or churning out word salad when you likely know darn well what my point is. Questions make me think.

Of course, the story was written by ancient peoples likely transitioning from hunter-gatherers into farmers. And they would not even mention God were God not part of their active daily thoughts. They likely felt a need to pray to Him in order for their crops to thrive, be protected from locusts and plague, and adequate rain. The stories go deeper, however. These were people who sought to know a bit more about God and wrote what their fireside storytelling implied.You claim that there are many god characters in the Bible, but I would argue that it is just people attempting to describe the one they prayed to. It's entirely logical to have many stories and ideas about the same Deity and form an evolving consensus among the community. I believe though cannot prove that God actually does bother communing in some way with the humans increasingly throughout history.

But it also markets that a relationship with Jesus Christ is possible. And you don't. Nobody wants to be taught that Christianity is but an obligation to society and is hard and often thankless work.

And I actually felt one...a big one that has essentially endured to this day, though it was strong off and on over the years. Despite you claiming that I never follow the message, I helped feed, clothe, and encourage people as well as visiting many in prison...for a period of nearly 20 years. As I grew comfortable sitting in front of a computer and doing nothing but working, I lost the feeling of anointing that I had while serving. Now, to be honest, I am but a bag of hot air...quoting scriptures that I don't see evidence of being alive. Unlike you, I refuse to lose the shackles of organized religion nor of ever even considering throwing god away. I don't frankly feel secure
in any way without God having my back.

My point is this: If One cannot actually feel any connection with God and is expected to simply do community service as a religion, why even have the religion. I could then see how someone would throw God away. The idea would simply be a creation of their mind anyway.You can and have told me that you believe in GOD but realize that She is likely unlike anything humans teach, but to me, your belief is no more special than believing in the spirit of Santa Claus and dressing up like him to entertain the children.

That's quite an assertion coming from you. Were I to tell you what you believed, you would sharply correct me yet you seem to dismiss any experiences I have had which differed from what you or anyone else has had. In fact, I think that it was *you* who once swallowed hook line and sinker what you were taught to believe and finally stepped out of what you say were shackles of organized religion.This is well and good, but you have no idea what I have believed, (apart from my words here at the Forum) the experiences I have had hearing actual voices (also heard by two others) and feeling my hair stand on end. Nor the confirming events which supported my otherwise illogical beliefs.
This was no reality TV show. James Randi didn't walk from the wings, snatch the million-dollar check from the leader's hand, and proclaim that science must and has ruled triumphant.
There are unexplained events in life...and in organized and unorganized religion and spirituality.
Now to be clear, I admit that people can be easily duped. I allow for the majority of the circus to be a con and/or livelihood for many Pastors, Teachers, and Leaders. I may have been fooled a time or two, but I won't simply accept your logic that such things don't happen simply because science says that they cannot and have not happened.So to wrap it up...getting back to the boring redefinition of Christianity as a simple secular humanist do-gooders club: I'm thinking that your charge against me is based on Matthew 25--that what I do to the least of these I, in fact, do to Jesus. (Whom you don't believe existed anyway, so I find it a waste of time to argue with you about it) Unlike Tangle, I don't believe that Jesus was simply a character in a book. What Jesus says to me is more than some ancient written down scripture. The One whom you deny exists and existed listens to my prayers, sob stories, and whining and often gives me an insight that I would never expect. He is not simply some magic Genie in my mind. In case I missed it, explain what specifically I deny. If it has to do with loving the least of these, I will confess that it is an ongoing issue. I won't simply help anyone who holds up a sign. If it turns out that on judgment day I am informed that it was Jesus Himself who held the sign that day, you will have a valid charge against me. Until then, you don't know squat about what I do, whom I help, and how I talk (and listen) in Communion with Jesus.You and your Dad must have been a pair! He taught you how to read the bible in a common-sense way and you turned it against organized religion and the church. I can only say that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! Yes, I am a bit worked up. You will be surprised someday when your precious global socialists end up fighting along with the rest of the people as resources grow scarce. It will only be then when you may find your charge against me will apply to you. He exists. ringo is not in charge nor free to rebel without consequences. And no, global socialism will never work as long as human nature is as it is.

And yet you ridicule the apologetic definitions of God's (and Jesus's) character. The God Who will judge you is unknowable by you.At that time, you might consider the question you always ask me: How Will You Know It Is God? (Doing the judging) You can't simply say that as long as you are alive you cannot have any clue as to God's nature and in the same breath say that you believe that you will someday be judged by this same unknown entity. Thankfully, I think you are wrong about being judged by what you do. He will give you a break on the many times you have killed someone's faith and led them astray solely because of your questionable Theological outlook. No, thank God! (For the behalf of both of us!)I do agree with you that we will be judged on what we believe, what we did, weighing our deeds against our ignored actions that we could have done, and knowing that the Judge will have perfect knowledge of our intentions as well as our actions.I don't know why the idea of a free pass irritates you so much. The pass was not easily obtained. And there may be lessons for many who confidently think they have a backstage pass. As you said, the get Out Of Hell Free Card may be stamped "Not Valid". But then again...we have not taken our Final Exam yet.

Where they disagree with you is that they would maintain that belief in Jesus Christ does in fact have relevance.I reviewed some of the scripture and found the followingBlueLetterBible)

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The Bible speaks of the fact that all humanity will be judged, and they will be judged by God the Son, Jesus Christ. The judgment in the next life will be based upon the deeds done in this life. Therefore our eternal destiny is determined here on earth, not after we die. The standard of judgment is as follows.

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1. According To The Truth They Have Received

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Each will be judged according to the information they have received. Jesus said.

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Matthew 11:21-24 writes:

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Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, on the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty deeds done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that on the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom than for you

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The Scriptural truth is that to whom much has been given, much will be required. This is fair, I suppose..but does this mean I will be judged harsher than someone who is merely illiterate?

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Luke12:48 writes:

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But the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more

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2. Judgment Will Be Fair

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We must note that judgment will be fair. The psalmist wrote.

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Psalm 96:13 writes:

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They will sing before the LORD, for He comes, He comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His truth

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The Apostle Paul also emphasized this truth. And I can hear you now...telling me that I am again using the Bible as the whole teaching and not breaking it down into various cultural eras. I maintain, however, that God lives beyond the book. People may have understood Him differently and with differing degrees of certainty and mythos, but if we are judged only in what we do, I would argue that I will get penalized for whining at EvC Forum. Again, not fair!

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Acts 17:31 writes:

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Because He has fixed a day on which He will have the world judged in righteousness by a man whom He has appointed, and of this He has given assurance to all by raising Him from the dead

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Jeremiah quoted God as saying.

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Jeremiah 17:10 writes:

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I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve

So this lends support to your beliefs.

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3. According To One's Works

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The Bible says that each of us will be judged according to our works.

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Romans 2:6-11 writes:

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For He will repay according to each one's deeds: but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

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In the Book of Revelation we read.

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Rev 2:23 writes:

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I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am He who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds

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Lest we might think that God will weigh our good deeds against our bad deeds, He has told us what the work of God consists.

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John 6:28-29 writes:

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Then they said to Him [Jesus], "What must we do to perform the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent"

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The work of God is to believe in Him whom He has sent - Jesus Christ.

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4. According To God's Standards - Jesus Christ

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Humanity will be judged according to God's standards, not ours. We will be measured against Christ, not compared with one another. Jesus said.

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Luke 12:8-9 writes:

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And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges Me before others, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but whoever denies Me before others will be denied before the angels of God

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Those who reject Jesus Christ will be judged.

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John 12:48 writes:

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The one who rejects Me and does not receive My word has a judge; on the last day, the Word that I have spoken will serve as judge

Not bad for a book allegedly compiled, edited, and redacted only by humans.

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Relationship To Christ

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The basis of God's judgment will be their relationship with Christ.

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John 3:18-19 writes:

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Those who believe in Him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil

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For by grace you have are saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).

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He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).

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Summary

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The Bible is clear on this issue. Where a person spends eternity depends upon how they view Jesus Christ. Those who receive Him as Savior will not be condemned. However, those who reject His free gift of salvation will be condemned for all eternity. Scripture also emphasizes that God's judgment will be fair - there will be no partiality.

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Edited by Thugpreacha, : broken quote

I included them because I believe that it is both works and belief in conjunction that sum up the teaching. You have used Matthew 25 to justify that belief does not matter, but I often wonder why you initially chose to "cherry-pick" that verse so often.Again, I observe that you reserve a disdain for any lazy guy who gets saved only by grace through faith.

That's logical. It's like that whole global warming thing...sometimes it feels like making changes is just a drop in the bucket and uncomfortable for us to do. I reuse my plastic bags for now, but the state legislature already passed a bill to charge everyone for plastic use, so the change is happening slowly.We have bigger fish to fry. You always remind us that the proverbial bill will get paid. Global Money is inflationary, easy, and cheap. Billionaires are pushing millionaires out of choice properties. The global debt is staggering. The Bill itself is larger than the total money supply of the population's savings.The Jesus whom the apologists say will come back may not come as soon as we need Him.Global Warming is an unavoidable reality. Global conflict seems increasingly likely.

All that I really do is explain how I believe and interpret these events. Many do happen to agree with me, but it is not because of what we were taught so much as it is what we experienced. Call it confirmation bias if you must, but believers who have had a born again experience sounds similar because what they experienced was similar.I think this is something that unbelievers do not understand. They have a lot of pre-assumptions, to begin with. Namely:

That God is relative to one's culture and that any name or religion will suffice at cultural description. They simply can't grasp the idea that God may be the same globally, yesterday today and forever. Granted I will concede that cultural awareness has changed in light of new human understanding, but the salvation experience among Christians globally by and large has been the same. (Catholicism is somewhat different.)

The branches (or as jar calls them "Clubs" ) of Christianity differ in ritual and teaching. The need for salvation, transformation, confirmation, or internal awareness is debatable as is the idea that humans need such a transformation, but it is far from as simple as pitting the conmen apologists against the rational traditionalists. It basically gets down to the philosophy of thought regarding who God is, who Jesus is, whether they "live" and are active today apart from human mythos, how we would know or whether we can know, and what constitutes evidence for and against such beliefs.

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In short, we explain our experience. We affirm that it occurred before we were taught what to expect or how to behave. We believe that even in our charismatic churches, perhaps 20% of the congregation understands it as we do but among these believers, there is little if any controversy. Controversy only happens in places like EvC where awareness is limited.

ringo writes:

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And why do you refuse to accept any explanation but your own?

Because there is only one explanation.

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I will now confess something that happened just last night in a dream. I awoke EvC Forum and ringo on my mind. God had clearly told me that you were right regarding my refusal to listen to what Jesus told me to do. Mind you, I would question it if anyone walked up to me and told me it, but I *knew* that it was Jesus speaking to me in my sub-conscience. And I won't bother explaining or defending such a belief. It is what it is. He has been impressing a lot on my rebellious fleshly state of mind lately, and I choose to listen and trust this inner voice, despite the fact that to outside observers I would appear to be slightly daft.

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The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott