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Author Topic:   Pakicetus being presented with webbed feet.
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 305 (261376)
11-19-2005 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-19-2005 6:15 PM


What is up for discussion?
I'm not sure what there is to discuss here. Are you just looking for a yes or no answer? If you can provide a reference to the particular National Geographic issue, then it would seem that this can be settled without discussion.
Are you willing to also discuss why you think this a significant issue? If you are, please edit the OP to include that as part of the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 11-19-2005 6:15 PM randman has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 305 (261633)
11-20-2005 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by randman
11-20-2005 6:44 PM


Re: Which door are you knocking on?
Yaro has a copy of that National Geographic available, and is willing to post the picture. But there isn't much point if the discussion is limited to a "yes" or "no" answer.
Are you willing to include a discussion of why you think this is important? If you are, I will be happy to promote this thread. If you would prefer to limit your time by making this a one-on-one debate with Yaro, I am happy to promote this to a Great Debate thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 6:44 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by randman, posted 11-20-2005 7:19 PM AdminNWR has not replied
 Message 215 by randman, posted 12-01-2005 5:27 PM AdminNWR has replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 305 (261638)
11-20-2005 7:24 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 305 (264183)
11-29-2005 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by randman
11-29-2005 3:44 PM


Re: take a look at the OP
Pretty much all I was looking for was a simple acknowledgement that they had no real evidence to show Pakicetus had webbed feet; that it was an error.
Before approving this thread, I explicitely asked whether you were looking for just a YES/NO answer, or were willing to go into more extensive discussions.
I would not have promoted the thread for a YES/NO response. It is important to go beyond the OP and also look at the full discussion that occurred prior to topic promotion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 3:44 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 4:23 PM AdminNWR has replied
 Message 218 by randman, posted 12-01-2005 5:34 PM AdminNWR has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 305 (264217)
11-29-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by randman
11-29-2005 4:23 PM


Re: take a look at the OP
I agree, but there is substantial difficulty even getting evos here that want to debate to deal with the Yes/No part.
A Yes/No answer is meaningless if not provided in a proper context. Yaro answered your Yes/No question in Message 9, by providing a picture from the National Geographic. This answer also provided the context which, in my opinion, showed that there was no deception or misrepresentation involved.
Look at arach's post demanding to deal with a separate issue of whether pakicetus is related to ambicoletus.
I have not gone back to recheck. It is my impression that you were only asked whether the skeletons were similar. I don't recall your being asked for a statement on whether they are related. The question seemed relevant, since it has to do with what is or is not a reasonable inference, which is what you were attempting to challenge.
It's just that it is freaking absurd to involve oneself with people that refuse to discuss the data.
And arachnophilia provided data, you refused to discuss it.
I leave work at 4:30 pm, and I arrive home at 5:00 pm. A reasonable person would infer that at 4:45 I was approximately halfway home. There is, however, no evidence for this. I could have poofed out of existence just after 4:30, and poofed back into existence just before 5:00, and thus I might have made it home without ever going through the intermediate points.
We make these inferences every day. It is not only scientists who make these inferences. Everybody makes such inferences. They are based on interpolation and extrapolation from known data. Such interpolations and extrapolations are not guaranteed to be correct, but they have a well established record of giving useful results.
1. Did Pakicetus have webbed feet? Yes/no is helpful to move the discussion forward.
2. Should depictions of webbed feet be shown with such scant evidence?
That's the topic here.
In Message 6 you said "PK, promote it in Education so he can present the pictures, and we can discuss whether the way Pakicetus is presented was right or not." That's what you agreed was the topic.
Yaro has defended the view that the way it was presented was right, because there was a clear statement as to the basis of the depiction and as to the fact that it was an artist's rendition. You have been consistently asserting that it was wrongly depicted. I am having great difficulty finding where you are providing a basis for your assertions.
If you want to argue that case, it seems to me that you would need to get into the issue of interpolation and extrapolation. And that would involve discussing a lot of related evidence that scientists use.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 4:23 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by randman, posted 11-29-2005 5:37 PM AdminNWR has not replied
 Message 150 by arachnophilia, posted 11-29-2005 7:25 PM AdminNWR has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 305 (264889)
12-01-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by randman
12-01-2005 5:27 PM


Re: to you and other mods who have commented
But in your comments on this thread, you seem to have acted as if this was not the Education forum but the Biological evolution forum, and sat by while I have been repeatedly berated by asinine posters trying to divert the thread topic from the issue of Education.
In my opinion, most of the posters have kept close to the question of "whether the way Pakicetus is presented was right or not." You agreed that was part of the topic in Message 6. Science is tentative, and scientific conclusions are subject to revision, so the meaning of "right" here has to be based on whether the presentation was a reasonable tentative judgement given the available evidence, and on whether the uncertainties were made clear.
Apparently you still believe that the presentation was not "right". I took many of the postings by Yaro, arachnophilia and a few others to be attempts to find out what you mean by "right".
I would like to see some acknowledgement that discussing how this material is presented to the public, not in peer-reviewed journals, is indeed the primary topic of this thread.
It has been the topic all along. There have been a few off-topic posts, but their number is smaller than in many threads.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by randman, posted 12-01-2005 5:27 PM randman has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 305 (264897)
12-01-2005 8:54 PM


Let's refocus
Randman, can you explain why you consider the depictions to not be "right", given that they appear to be honest about the evidence on which they were based? What exactly is your standard for "right" when presenting tentative conclusions?
To others, please hold off on further challenges since there are already plenty of unanswered challenges there.


Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by randman, posted 12-02-2005 12:47 AM AdminNWR has not replied

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