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Author Topic:   Pakicetus being presented with webbed feet.
randman 
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Message 1 of 305 (261335)
11-19-2005 6:15 PM


I hate to rehash stuff, but I thought before going on, we could have a few threads to establish some basic facts so we don't have to argue if they are real or not.
One fact is that when Pakicetus was first presented to the world, the diagrams and illustrations, such as the quite extensive lay-out in National Geographic, depicted Pakicetus with webbed feet. Later, textbooks such as the ones for my kids also showed Pakicetus with webbed feet.
Do the evos here believe this occured, or not?
For the lurkers, Pakicetus is purely a land animal that evolutionists claim is a whale or alternatively an ancestor to a whale, and tried to pass it off as semi-aquatic even though they had nothing but a skull. Basically, the animal has a slightly expanded aurul cavity, and pretty much on that basis, they think it must have been the beginnings of whales evolving, but interestingly, some evos call it one of the first whales, even though it looks like a dog or large rate, and has basically no whale features at all.

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randman 
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Message 4 of 305 (261624)
11-20-2005 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminPhat
11-20-2005 11:31 AM


Re: Which door are you knocking on?
We can scratch it if you want. It's just that it seems like basic facts are not acknowledged by some. It's like arguing the sky really is blue. My feeling is some evos refuse to acknowledge any basic fact if they think the fact can be used to argue against their case.
But let's just move on....

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randman 
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Message 6 of 305 (261634)
11-20-2005 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminNWR
11-20-2005 7:16 PM


Re: Which door are you knocking on?
PK, promote it in Education so he can present the pictures, and we can discuss whether the way Pakicetus is presented was right or not.

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randman 
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Message 14 of 305 (261679)
11-20-2005 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by arachnophilia
11-20-2005 7:32 PM


Re: bones
Your comments are becoming annoying since presumably you are already aware of the documentation I showed earlier where the initial find was just a skull, and they showed the creature with webbed feet, and then later when more parts were changed, they admitted the animal was not semi-aquatic as clearly shown in the illustration.
If you are not aware of the hours of posts already establishing this fact on other threads, then take the time to get up to speed so you don't waste our time asking easily questions to answers you can verify for yourself.
It appears to me you are just trying to waste my time and divert the conversation to debating already established facts.
This message has been edited by randman, 11-20-2005 09:55 PM

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randman 
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Message 16 of 305 (261683)
11-20-2005 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Yaro
11-20-2005 7:56 PM


Re: The Image in Question
It was still a misrepresentation because in despite the caption which some may or may not catch, the inference was that the creature was probably semo-aquatic. In reality, it was not, and there is no real reason to think it was.
The fact is finding fossils near river beds is what you expect for land mammals as well since they drink water, and also since fossilization often occurs with rapid burial such as flooding.
But the skull was hyped nonetheless, and furthermore, the depiction and false claims made it's way into school's curriculoms, true to evolutionist form, trying to blow up data to make it stronger for their case rather than a reasoned, objective analysis of the fact that no real claim could even be reasonably suggested as far as whether it was semi-aquatic or not.
Here is a link to a more reasonable depiction. I cannot seem to post the depiction, but maybe someone else here can.
http://www.neoucom.edu/...Thewissen/Pub_images/Pakicetus.JPG
Compare that with:
Clearly, the reports that Pakicetus was seal-like were unfounded, but in typical fashion, evos hyped the evidence and thus follow a familiar unfortunate pattern.
This message has been edited by randman, 11-20-2005 10:17 PM

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 19 of 305 (261697)
11-20-2005 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by arachnophilia
11-20-2005 10:36 PM


Re: The Image in Question
There is a huge difference actually. Pakicestus is now clearly identified as solely a land mammal, and not seal-like. The depictions were warped to make a more convincing case for evolution, and of course, they are still presented falsely, but that's to be expected as part of the pattern. Evos present overstatements as factual, and then eventually some adjustments are made, but the fabricated areas remain taught to students so what students get is a mass of overstatements presented as uncontested facts.

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randman 
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Message 21 of 305 (261702)
11-20-2005 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by DBlevins
11-20-2005 10:59 PM


Re: The Image in Question
The picture you linked to is the artists depiction based on only the skull, just as the national geographic's depiction. Our best guess, so far, is that it is likely to have had webbed feet, based on our knowledge of the anatomy's of animals living today in similar environments.
I am sorry, but that's false.
And if you had thought about it, you would realize the site I linked does not mean I endorse it's conclusions. In these discussions, I have frequently linked to that site because of 2 factors.
1. It demonstrates the absurdity of evolutionist thought in calling Pakicestus, a creature with no whale features at all, "the first whale."
2. It is a site done by one of the prominent evo researchers in this particular area and field so a lot of what he says is based on his first-hand knowledge.
Any more questions about the link?

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 22 of 305 (261703)
11-20-2005 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by arachnophilia
11-20-2005 11:04 PM


Re: pop quiz for randman only.
Sorry, but I am not interested in playing your games. The animal is no longer considered semi-aquatic by the evolutionists that first made that claim. It is a moot point since your side already conceded the argument.

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randman 
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Message 26 of 305 (261714)
11-20-2005 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by arachnophilia
11-20-2005 11:08 PM


Re: The Image in Question
arachnophilia, no one is trying to dodge your points here, but you are just ignorant of the claims here and so are raising issues that are no longer germane to the debate, and issues long ago covered on other threads. Maybe you just didn't participate on them.
With that in mind, here are some links and info that can help get you up to speed. As much as possible, I will quote evo sources you agree with already. Here is some typical misinformation by evos, including the seal-like claim.
Some (like Pakicetus and Protocetus) still had vestigial rear limbs (flippers) from their land roving days.
Pakicetus inachus - This seal-like, toothed cetacean may have divided its time between the land and the shoreline, rivers, and estuaries.
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/...ation/Whalefossils.shtml
You can see some diagrams of different reconstructions shown on the following link, including where Gingrich showed Pakicestus as a swimming aquatic mammal prior to knowing anything more than a skull, the diagram appearing on the cover of Science.
The diagram shows the imaginative reconstruction taught to schoolteachers and on the cover of Science, compared to the reality as reported in the same issue. Note that only the stippled parts of the skull represent actual fossil evidence, while the rest is ”reconstructed.’
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/re1/chapter5.asp
If you want to look at more detailed scholarly links, you can review some of the past threads on whale evolution, but the following expresses an assessment generous to your side of the argument and should settle the issue. More detailed studies are more adament in their conclusions Pakicetus was not semi-aquatic.
In 2001, further fossils were discovered (Thewissen et al., 2001), making Pakicetus appear more terrestrial and less aquatic. It is now thought to have possessed goat-like legs (http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/Pakicetid.html) and been primarily a running land animal.
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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 29 of 305 (261718)
11-20-2005 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by DBlevins
11-20-2005 11:34 PM


Re: The Image in Question
Bare assertions, even by experts, do not count as reliable. The aural cavity is unusual, but it is not considered a fully formed whale feature. The site you quoted has already been noted for it's overstatements in calling a land mammal "the first whale."
Evos consider the skull's aural cavity to be a precursor to whale ears, but in a lot of ways, that's just an opinion since it is not a whale ear and could just be the result of this creature having an expanded aural cavity.
The other claim deals with teeth, but these same teeth are seen in other land mammals. So to claim they are whale teeth is false.
So despite the bare assertions you quote, there are no whale features, at least none fully formed, in Pakicetus. Pakicetus is not a whale. It doesn't have any of the major distinquishing whale characteristics in the observed whales we see today.

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randman 
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Message 30 of 305 (261720)
11-20-2005 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
11-20-2005 11:39 PM


Re: The Image in Question
I don't need to describe it since the issue is a moot point.
Why don't you get that?
Do Evos today agree it was not semi-aquatic?
Yes or no?
that's not what i'd call an evo source, is it? aside from that, it's evidently outdated, isn't it? the picture of a skeleton i posted above is at least 50% complete, with reconstructions based on ambulocetus.
It cites and reproduces the diagrams from an evo source though, and of course it is dated. That's my whole point. Evos exagerrated their claims.
This message has been edited by randman, 11-20-2005 11:43 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 33 of 305 (261728)
11-21-2005 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
11-20-2005 11:48 PM


Re: The Image in Question
which other land mammals? show me.
Why don't you show are willing to be serious and bother to educate yourself on the basics of this debate? It is tiresome to repeat the same old data over and over again, as nauseum, to evos that have the gall to claim I am the one that is ignorant here of the facts.
Here some basic info for you. Please try to spend a little time learing this stuff yourself so the discussion can be a real one instead of consisting of petty arguments where I have to prove every little, commonly known fact to you.
evidence for land mammal
The pakicetid innominate (Fig. 1n) is large and the ischium is longer than the ilium. The tibia is long in pakicetids and has a short tibial crest. Long tibiae are present in fast land mammals21 and also in phocid seals20, 22. In phocids, the large ischium, short femur with asymmetrical condyles combined with the long tibia with long tibial crest allow the hamstrings to act as foot adductors (knee flexors with thigh in abducted position) while swimming20. The relative lengths of these bones in pakicetids, their slender appearance, the short tibial crest, high patellar groove, and symmetrical knee make the phocid mode of locomotion unlikely for pakicetids, and their external morphology is more similar to that of running and jumping mammals21.
Running features are also found in the ankle where the proximal trochlea of the astragalus is constrained to a tight hinge joint (Fig. 1o’r). Like artiodactyls23, 24, pakicetids have a trochleated astragalar head rotating in the dorso-plantar plane. The sustentacular facet is a hinge that also rotates dorso-plantarly, and the ectal facet is small and laterally placed. The calcaneum (Fig. 1s and t) has a long tuber and an obliquely set, narrow cuboid facet. These features are commonly interpreted as adaptations for running23, 24, 25, although they are retained in non-running, graviportal artiodactyls.
The hands of Pakicetus and Ambulocetus are equally robust; the ratio of midshaft width to length of the central metacarpal is 0.17 and 0.18 respectively. On the other hand, the feet of Ambulocetus exceed those of Pakicetus in robustness by more than 20% (this ratio for metatarsal III is 0.11 and 0.14 respectively). Ambulocetus probably swam using its hind limbs as the main propulsor, and its robust feet may be an adaptation for forcefully displacing water during swimming9. Pakicetids, on the other hand, had the slender metapodials of running animals.
....
The orbits of pakicetids are close together and are frontated (face dorsally) but are not at the most dorsal point of the head (Fig. 3). This is unlike any other cetacean.
Here we see a reference to the fact dental wear is similar to another land mammal.
Deep, near-vertical gouges constitute most of the dental wear in pakicetids29. Cladistic arguments have been used to link this wear pattern to aquatic predation on fish29, but no functional model or modern analogue is known. Moreover, this kind of dental wear also occurs in raoellid artiodactyls30. Although this dental wear probably represents a distinctive way of food processing, it does not necessarily imply aquatic life.
Here we see the outer ear is not whale-like.
Unlike any other cetacean, the pakicetid outer ear was unspecialized and similar to that of land mammals6. The external auditory meatus opens low on the side of the skull, and the mandible has a small mandibular foramen31. In amphibious mammals, the external auditory meatus commonly opens dorsally.
more on how the ear was not adapted for underwater hearing
The pakicetid middle ear was highly specialized and included pachy-osteosclerotic ossicles2, an involucrum6 and a plate-like sigmoid process6. These features have been interpreted as adaptations for underwater hearing31, and it has been suggested that the presence of an involucrum facilitates underwater high-frequency transmission in modern odontocetes32 even though the involucrum is also present in low-frequency mysticetes. In the case of pakicetids, the absence of air sinuses insulating the ears12, the firm fusion of the periotic to the surrounding bones2, 12, and the presence of a flat tympanic membrane3, 6 suggest that reception of airborne sound is well developed, but are inconsistent with good underwater hearing3, 12. It is most likely that the specializations of the pakicetid middle ear are analogous to those of some subterranean mammals33 and are related to the reception of substrate-borne vibrations or sound when the head is in contact with the ground8. Turtles are in close contact with the substrate and gather sensory information using this method34.
Taken together, the features of the skull indicate that pakicetids were terrestrial, and the locomotor skeleton displays running adaptations. Some features of the sense organs of pakicetids are also found in aquatic mammals, but they do not necessarily imply life in water. Pakicetids were terrestrial mammals, no more amphibious than a tapir.
Skeletons of terrestrial cetaceans and the relationship of whales to artiodactyls | Nature
On the matter of the teeth, for years the assumption was whales descended from mesonychids based on similar teeth, and I think if you look closely at the literature, they are not the only land animals with some teeth similar to some whale teeth, although not al whales have these teeth.
This is a tough chapter to summarize. It's about teeth. It's virtually all about teeth. There are detailed pictures and diagrams of teeth. There are numerous terms that refer to features on teeth (paracones, metaconids, trigon basin, cusps, reentrant grooves, etc.)
Reading her first paragraph provides some insight about the uncertainty regarding exactly what group the cetaceans are descended from. The question is artiodactyl vs. mesonychian, but they are both ungulate groups! In her first sentence, O'Leary calls the mesonychians "an aberrant group of carnivorous mammals nested within the ungulates".
She reviews what's been happening, notably the molecular AND morphological evidence for the Artiodactyla connection. But, a body of morphological work - mostly dental and cranial - supports the mesonychian connection,
http://home.tiac.net/~cri/2001/acker05.html
This message has been edited by randman, 11-21-2005 12:17 AM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
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Message 35 of 305 (261730)
11-21-2005 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by DBlevins
11-21-2005 12:13 AM


Re: The Image in Question
Pakicetids were terrestrial mammals, no more amphibious than a tapir.
Skeletons of terrestrial cetaceans and the relationship of whales to artiodactyls | Nature
Edit to add I see your paper is dated later. If there is some debate, it appears that most now accept it was not at all aquatic, but regardless, the point is presenting it as aquatic was unfounded. Keep in mind these presentations are presented as facts when in reality they are biased guesses, and as such, have no business presented to children, students, etc,...as facts.
It's inherently dishonest to do so.
This message has been edited by randman, 11-21-2005 12:34 AM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 42 of 305 (261748)
11-21-2005 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by arachnophilia
11-21-2005 12:42 AM


Re: The Image in Question
It's considered more adapted for high speed running, not swimming, and as far as dental wear, what's your beef? I could foresee you would probably falsely claim I considered that the same as teeth shape, but I had hope you'd be intelligent enough not to make that mistake and look into the data more carefully.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 43 of 305 (261749)
11-21-2005 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by arachnophilia
11-21-2005 12:46 AM


Re: The Image in Question
I guess the claims Pakicetus was seal-like is a only a reproduction. eh? You know when it is written down as a fact, just because a reproduction goes along with it doesn't make the writing non-existent.

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