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Author Topic:   The Light Time Problem
Dredge
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Posts: 2088
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 271 of 278 (899396)
10-13-2022 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by dwise1
10-13-2022 2:01 AM


Thanx for the information. Very interesting.
No YEC claim will be forthcoming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by dwise1, posted 10-13-2022 2:01 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
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Posts: 2088
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 272 of 278 (899397)
10-13-2022 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Tanypteryx
10-12-2022 10:30 PM


Okay ... thank you. It's all rather fascinating.

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dwise1
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Posts: 5475
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 273 of 278 (899398)
10-13-2022 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Dredge
10-13-2022 3:12 AM


No YEC claim will be forthcoming.
Always good to hear
Thanx for the information. Very interesting.
What? You're starting to learn?
Quick! What's weather report in Hell? Any frost warnings?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Dredge, posted 10-13-2022 3:12 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2088
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 274 of 278 (899405)
10-13-2022 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by dwise1
10-13-2022 3:28 AM


When I become a grown-up I might be a geologist.

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AZPaul3
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Posts: 7324
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(3)
Message 275 of 278 (899410)
10-13-2022 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Dredge
10-13-2022 1:49 AM


So you didn't think the issue through. Typical meat-cracker catholic.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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 Message 269 by Dredge, posted 10-13-2022 1:49 AM Dredge has not replied

  
FLRW
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Posts: 73
Joined: 10-08-2007


(2)
Message 276 of 278 (899478)
10-14-2022 4:11 PM


I actually happen to know something about the "Miller Tale" as it is called. Miller "borrowed" some dinosaur bones from a museum without telling the curators or owners what he was actually intending on doing with it. He immediately took it to be 14C dated and received a date of roughly 40,000 years. So if Dinosaur bones are supposedly 65+ million years old, why is this? I'll tell you why.
The dinosaur bones did NOT have any carbon in them. They'd been essentially completely replaced by minerals during the fossilization process. What happened was that Miller did NOT know that they were covered in a preservative made of an organic material called shellac, which is organic so it's full of carbon. This contaminated the result. What they got was a date for the shellac, not the dinosaur fossils.

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dwise1
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(1)
Message 277 of 278 (899482)
10-14-2022 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by FLRW
10-14-2022 4:11 PM


I'm not familiar with the "Miller Tale" -- if it had been mentioned in this topic or elsewhere on this forum, please point it out.
Basically, this Miller had done what other creationists had done: grossly abuse dating methods in order to get "bad results". I remember one YouTube video with commentary of an "interview" with Kent Hovind where he discussed the "bad results" from a C14 test on a dinosaur fossil -- the commentator kept shouting over the video, "There's no f**king carbon!"
A common tactic in this form of creationist deception is as you point out: using the wrong dating method. A common refutation of this trick is to point out that we weigh ourselves with a bathroom scale, our letters with a postage scale, and our vehicles and 18-wheel trucks plus trailer with truck scales. Assuming indestructible scales, I could prove that my Honda hybrid (a bit over 3000 lb) weighs only 400 lb by weighing it on a bathroom scale, that I myself (180 lb) weigh less than a pound by weighing myself on a postage scale, and that a 10-lb package I want to mail doesn't weigh anything at all by weighing it on a truck scale. Creationists like to declare a "gotcha" when the lab asks what age range you think it is (plus other questions the creationists don't mention or even know about) because that will tell them which test to perform first -- if the test pegs out at either extremely end of the scale then that tells them to use a test with another more appropriate scale (think about measuring a voltage with a multimeter where you start a too-high voltage so as to not damage its D'Arsonval movement by pegging it and then working down through progressive smaller voltage scales).
While most creationists have no clue what they are doing, there are also those who do know. I don't know whether Miller knew about the shellac, but a creationist who did know about the need to prevent contamination of a radiocarbon dating sample with other organic material would knowingly use that to get the "bad results" that he wanted.
An example of that is Dr. Steve Austin, PhD Geology, (AKA "Stuart Nevins", his pseudonym writing "geology based" creationist articles while being paid by the ICR to earn his PhD Geology -- they wanted to have an actual PhD Geology on their staff). His schooling taught him about radiometric dating methods and the kinds of conditions that can lead to bad results -- those kinds of conditions were not discovered by creationists, but rather by practicing scientists testing their methods in order to discover anything to look out for. So actually trained creationists know what to look for to get the "bad results" that they want, as Dr. Austin did at the Grand Canyon.
A similar problem involves trying to apply radiocarbon dating to sea life. Radiocarbon dating depends on atmospheric C14 being incorporated into plant life and from there into the food chain (NOTE: only plants "breathe in" carbon, but animals don't -- they exhale it as carbon dioxide -- so animals can only get their C14 by eating plants or plant-eaters). Very little atmospheric C14 makes it into the oceans, so most of the carbon in the oceans' food chains are "old carbon" with far lower C14 levels than terrestrial life of the same age would contain. Examples very often cited by creationists include:
  • Living seals being dated at "thousands of years old":
    Those seals feed on fish and other sea animals, all of whom had gotten their C14 from the aquatic food chain which is notorious full of "old carbon".
    Yes, seals do breathe in air with its atmospheric C14, but, as anyone even remotely familiar with biology should know, animals extract oxygen from the air they breathe in and "excrete" their carbon dioxide, which is what contains the C14. Yet again (for the benefit of candle2 and his ilk), plants breathe in carbon dioxide and breathe out oxygen, whereas animals breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide.
  • Living freshwater mollusks being dated at "thousands of years old":
    This was actually one of the two first creationist claims I heard c. 1970 (the second was the infamous "NASA computer finding Joshua's Lost Day" claim which is totally bogus just on its face), but decades had to pass before I was able to find a creationist who provided the scientific source.
    It turns out that the stream they were taken from was fed by a spring in limestone rock, which is rich in old carbon -- therefore low levels of C14.
This next one comes from a recent NOVA episode which described an archeological dig in England to find a massive Viking encampment for which we have historical evidence. They were able to find human remains from that time, but those remains radiocarbon dated to be about 200 years older. The solution to that was to remember that they depended on fish for a lot of their protein. And fish are chock full of protein, essential Omega-3 oils, and ... (wait for it ... wait for it) ... old carbon. A reminder for candle2 and his ilk: animals (which includes us despite all your contrary theology) acquire their C14 through their food, not from the air.
 
A day or so again in another topic, candle2 started railing again about "flaws in dating", mainly triggered by false claims he had previously made about radiocarbon dating. That is the main reason for this, my reply.
I hope that candle2 will read this and finally present what he thinks are the "flaws in radiocarbon dating".
Not only am I not going to hold my breathe, I'm not even going to go out and buy any microwave popcorn for that show.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 278 of 278 (899507)
10-15-2022 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by dwise1
10-14-2022 5:25 PM


dwise1 writes:
Dr. Steve Austin, PhD Geology
Let's not forget Austin's fraudulent "dating" of material from Mt. St. Helens.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
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