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Author | Topic: The Light Time Problem | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 9.5
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Excuse me for asking, but has this got anything to do with the light-time problem? I think it was that very last bit.
quote Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Astrophile Member (Idle past 379 days) Posts: 92 From: United Kingdom Joined:
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Tanypteryx writes: I think it was that very last bit. quote If you feel safe in your current view of the world, then by all means don't do anything that might enlighten you. —candyass2 Thank-you. I hadn't noticed that bit.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined: |
dwise1 writes:
But the sedimentary rock could be much younger than the surrounding igneous rock. Radiometric dating on rock is how long ago it solidified from being molten.Radiometric dating cannot be performed on sedimentary rock since it is ground down and recycled older rock, so radiometric dating would just get the age of bit of old rock tested. However, we can tell which layers are older than others by the order in which they are stacked. We can also establish dates for layers from igneous intrusions which bracket them in. Therefore we can determine the age of a particular layer. A flood could leave a sedimentary layer-cum-rock around some igneous rocks millions-billions of years after said igneous rocks were formed.
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
How do you figure a sedimentary layer managed to sneak UNDER an older igneous layer? But the sedimentary rock could be much younger than the surrounding igneous rock. Edited by ringo, : Spellinge. "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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You forget that he's hanging upside down in Australia.
He doesn't know up from down, let alone which way is up.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined: |
ringo writes:
Between the sedimentary layer that contains a fossil and the igneous layer below could be hundreds of meters of other sedimentary rock layers ... which means that fossil-layer could have formed a very long time after the igneous layer. How do you figure a sedimentary layer managed to sneak UNDER an older igneous layer? But I guess general geological patterns emerge, which is where index fossils come into play.
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
I specified that the igneous layer is ON TOP of the sedimentary layer. Try again. Between the sedimentary layer that contains a fossil and the igneous layer below could be hundreds of meters of other sedimentary rock layers ... which means that fossil-layer could have formed a very long time after the igneous layer."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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As usual, you ignore the whole picture.
Of course your pathological willful stupidity will keep you from learning, so this is for others who will read this (eg, online right now are four members and 153 visitors):
But I guess general geological patterns emerge, which is where index fossils come into play. Since you are a creationist, I can smell this typical stupid creationist "objection" coming: "Fossils are dated by their layers and layers are dated by their fossils, so it's nothing but circular reasoning." No, that is most definitely not true. We see above how layers are dated.Index fossils are just one means of identifying which layer we're looking at, plus those index fossils are very common ones and not the ones we're dating. I explained that before to candle2 in this same topic, my Message 36 reply to his Message 30 (actually, your Message 258 that spawn your current fit of confusion was a "reply" to that same Message 36, excerpted here with a few typographical corrections):
DWise1 writes: candle2 writes: Also, fossils are dated by the strata that theyare found in, and the strata is dated by the fossils they contain. Yes, and? By the way you say that means that you are insinuating circular reasoning. Same dishonest creationist lie, hasn't changed a bit. Radiometric dating on rock is how long ago it solidified from being molten. Radiometric dating cannot be performed on sedimentary rock since it is ground down and recycled older rock, so radiometric dating would just get the age of bits of old rock tested. However, we can tell which layers are older than others by the order in which they are stacked. We can also establish dates for layers from igneous intrusions which bracket them in. Therefore we can determine the age of a particular layer. Fossils cannot be dated directly (excluding organic specimens). For one thing, if you melt the fossil in order to "restart its clock", then you have destroyed that fossil -- if it's a fossil, it hasn't been melted, so no radiometrically dating a fossil. Fossils result from burial and so are most commonly found in sedimentary rock, but we can arrive at a date for the layer it's found in as described above (extremely important that you don't just pull a fossil out of the ground and carry it to a museum). So how do we identify a layer here to be part of that other layer way over there?In geology it's done with identifying characteristics which have been determined empirically, which includes index fossils. However, many of those index fossils are microscopic, eg diatom shells which evolve over time. Fossils such as the ones that we are interested in (eg, dinos) are not used as index fossils. Thus the fossils identifying the stratum (from which we know its age) are not the same as the fossils that get their age from which stratum they're in. There is no circular reasoning here. Hope I was able to nip that one in the bud. But then you do never fail to disappoint.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined:
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Believe it or not, I'm not an expert in geology or atomic dating, so thank you for the information.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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It's all common knowledge. Plus things that one can work out based on how things work. Or asking the right questions and then researching for the answer. Anybody who has given it any serious thought would have come up with the same.
For example, while driving up to Lake Arrowhead (going from an elevation of 100 ft to one mile) for a father-son event, I was regarding the exposed roadside geology on display when a question occurred to me:
Since sedimentary layers (of which I was seeing a lot) consists of older rock that had been ground up and recycled, exactly how are they dated? I mean, if you date them directly, then you should get a much older age because they consist of much older rock, right?
Since at that time (1994) we were just beginning to get access to the Internet, we didn't have the online resources yet, so I hit the university library. That is when I learned about the use of igneous layers and intrusions as "tie points". The purpose of questions is to point us to the direction for finding the answer. And in science the best thing you can find in that answer is more questions. That way, we find paths to keep learning. Using questions in order to intimidate or prevent discussion or to otherwise weaponize them is a serious abuse. That is how creationists typically abuse questions.
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Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined: |
dwise1 writes:
Right. Furthermore, I imagine sedimentary rock could contain a mish-mash of particles of vastly varying ages - for example, some particles could be only thousands of years old while other particles could be billions of years old.
Since sedimentary layers (of which I was seeing a lot) consists of older rock that had been ground up and recycled, exactly how are they dated? I mean, if you date them directly, then you should get a much older age because they consist of much older rock, right?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
Furthermore, I imagine sedimentary rock could contain a mish-mash of particles of vastly varying ages - for example, some particles could be only thousands of years old while other particles could be billions of years old. And you imagine god and meat-crackers and all kinds of other wrong things. So now that you know you are wrong about the particle mix how does this change things?Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4597 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 9.5 |
for example, some particles could be only thousands of years old while other particles could be billions of years old. Well, the rocks would have to be at least as old as the particles that make them up, and I don't think there are any exposed sedimentary rocks that are only thousands of years old. And I also don't think that any particles from exposed sedimentary rocks have ever been dated at only thousands of years old. And yes, we can do radiometric dating on individual particles using mass spectrometry.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Dredge Member Posts: 2855 From: Australia Joined: |
AZPaul3 writes:
I don't know⁶.
So now that you know you are wrong about the particle mix how does this change things?
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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Furthermore, I imagine sedimentary rock could contain a mish-mash of particles of vastly varying ages - ... Correct in general, but there's are a few things to keep in mind. BTW, the next thing you wrote alerted me to the need for the following:
So then, yes, the ages of individual particles within a sedimentary layer would be a vastly varying mish-mash. But we do know that all those ages have to be greater than the age of the new layer composed of those particles. Often vastly older.
... - for example, some particles could be only thousands of years old while other particles could be billions of years old. If not for your protestations that you are an OEC and not a YEC, I would say that it looks suspiciously like you are trying to set up a YEC claim. No, "only thousands of years old" is very unlikely. The time it would have taken for each step of the process taken sequentially as I delineated it above would have to have been far greater than that. I think you may be getting too close to veering off the road and into the weeds there. Keep your eyes on the road, your hand upon the wheel.
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