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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 661 of 728 (895070)
06-07-2022 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by ringo
06-03-2022 9:06 PM


Re: Giving It All Up. An Arguable Theme
Phat writes:
...I would not give most apologists anything much less everything.
ringo writes:
You give them an ear.
OK lets have it your way. IF Jesus exists eternally and outside of the book, I often promise Him that He can have it all since it is all His anyway. That being said, I'm not rushing off to sell my house or my investments. I'm not a wealthy man anyway. TBH, my net worth is under 200K. (and half of that is the house)
Now unlike your assumptions of how He must sound to me, I don't hear Jesus speaking to me through words He has said to others...at least not unless it convicts me. This is no way means that I "scoff at what He says." As I said earlier, thats all on me. If the Government got in financial trouble and had a
necessary BaiL-In

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by ringo, posted 06-03-2022 9:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 12:28 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 663 by ringo, posted 06-07-2022 12:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 662 of 728 (895071)
06-07-2022 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Phat
06-07-2022 12:20 PM


Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Does your pension belong to you or to the people-at-large?
If you withdrew it from the bank and did not hand it over to the friendly government, would the people have a right to seize it?
How about if you had a safety deposit box and they froze it?
These answers likely will reflect what I dislike about liberal Authoritarianism.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 12:20 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by ringo, posted 06-07-2022 12:51 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 665 by nwr, posted 06-07-2022 12:57 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 666 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 2:22 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19752
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 663 of 728 (895072)
06-07-2022 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Phat
06-07-2022 12:20 PM


Re: Giving It All Up. An Arguable Theme
Phat writes:
IF Jesus exists eternally and outside of the book...
He doesn't.
Phat writes:
... I often promise Him that He can have it all since it is all His anyway.
That's a convenient cop-out. "It's all yours, Jesus. I'll just continue to use it until to come back and ask for it." Donald Trump could say the same thing.
But YOU do not get to decide who uses it.
Phat writes:
Now unlike your assumptions of how He must sound to me, I don't hear Jesus speaking to me through words He has said to others...
Oh, I know that. He has a special message just for you: "Never mind what I said to those people in the New Testament. Here's the REAL scoop - You keep it all and use it at your convenience. This generation - YOUR privileged generation - shall not pass before I come back and give you your special private instructions."
Phat writes:
This is no way means that I "scoff at what He says."
You scoff at the idea of giving it all up. You say it's impossible - even though many people have done it throughout history. Sounds like scoffing to me.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 12:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19752
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 664 of 728 (895074)
06-07-2022 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by Phat
06-07-2022 12:28 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Phat writes:
Does your pension belong to you or to the people-at-large?
Are you talking to me?
I once heard a clergyman say that he doesn't receive a salary or a wage. He receives a stipend. A stipend pays his expenses so he doesn't have to go out and get a regular job, leaving his time free to do the work of the church - e.g. visiting the sick.
I think of my pension like a stipend. It pays my expenses so I don't have to go out and take a job away from a younger person who needs it more than I do.
Phat writes:
If you withdrew it from the bank and did not hand it over to the friendly government, would the people have a right to seize it?
1. The people ARE the government.
2. We're not talking about turning anything over to the government.
3. We're no talking about the people seizing anything.
4. We're talking about VOLUNTARILY giving it up.
Phat writes:
How about if you had a safety deposit box and they froze it?
See above.
Phat writes:
These answers likely will reflect what I dislike about liberal Authoritarianism.
"Liberal Authoritarianism" is a lie that your far-right-wing handlers are feeding you. I have never, in any way, shape or form, advocated the government taking anything from you by force. STOP making that stupid claim.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 12:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6038
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 665 of 728 (895075)
06-07-2022 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by Phat
06-07-2022 12:28 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Does your pension belong to you or to the people-at-large?
That doesn't even make sense.
If you withdrew it from the bank and did not hand it over to the friendly government, would the people have a right to seize it?
I'm not sure that makes sense, either. My pension is direct deposited to my bank account. I withdraw as needed. And I do pay taxes on that pension. Is paying taxes what you mean by "hand it over to the friendly government?" I don't think of it that way. I think of it as paying my share of the support services that I depend on.
How about if you had a safety deposit box and they froze it?
I'm not sure what that's all about either.
These answers likely will reflect what I dislike about liberal Authoritarianism.
It seems that what you dislike about liberals, is the bullshit that you have made up in your head.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 12:28 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 666 of 728 (895080)
06-07-2022 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by Phat
06-07-2022 12:28 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Jesus never said to give it all to him. He said to use it to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort the sorrowful, heal the sick and protect the helpless.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 12:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 667 of 728 (895088)
06-07-2022 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by jar
06-07-2022 2:22 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
jar writes:
Jesus never said to give it all to him. He said to use it to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, comfort the sorrowful, heal the sick and protect the helpless.
And that's expected...and fair enough for any Christian. ringo seems to emphasize the wholly nonsensical position that Jesus told Christians (and only Christians) to sell everything they have and follow Him. So what does this mean today? There is obviously no apologist or preacher worth following.
To me, it means following His example and feeding people, for instance. But no one cashes out their bank accounts and investments so that the homeless population of Pheonix has a grand week of meals, for example. Sheltering the homeless can be done through community taxation or, if one is wealthy, through a 501-C3 donation or direct involvement with their local church, which costs time rather than money.
The issue which sticks in my craw is the argument that I MUST give up everything and become poor myself. Do YOU do that, jar? Are you now poor and happily serving your community? Or do you, as most of us, realize that only YOU can plan for your own retirement (likely already happened) and can better serve the community while still having a place to stay.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 2:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2022 5:49 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 669 by jar, posted 06-07-2022 5:49 PM Phat has replied
 Message 670 by ringo, posted 06-08-2022 11:45 AM Phat has replied
 Message 671 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2022 12:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8579
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 668 of 728 (895091)
06-07-2022 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by Phat
06-07-2022 5:39 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Phat writes:
But no one cashes out their bank accounts and investments so that the homeless population of Pheonix has a grand week of meals, for example
But what would Jesus do Phat?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 669 of 728 (895092)
06-07-2022 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by Phat
06-07-2022 5:39 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Yes Phat, I'm pretty much poor, well better off them some but my house costs less than a Jeep Grand Waggoneer.
But remember it's not any of us telling you that you must be poor, it was Jesus.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by Phat, posted 06-14-2022 3:28 PM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19752
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 670 of 728 (895118)
06-08-2022 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 667 by Phat
06-07-2022 5:39 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Phat writes:
ringo seems to emphasize the wholly nonsensical position that Jesus told Christians (and only Christians) to sell everything they have and follow Him.
That's exactly what He said, "Sell what you have and give to the poor." That's exactly what His disciples did.
YOU keep claiming that I want the government to seize everything you have, despite me telling you repeatedly that it's supposed to be VOLUNTARY.
Phat writes:
So what does this mean today?
The same as it meant 2000 years ago.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 06-14-2022 2:30 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8579
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 671 of 728 (895123)
06-08-2022 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by Phat
06-07-2022 5:39 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Just in case you actually haven't read it
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
18A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
20You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ ”
21“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy.
24Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!
25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
26Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”
27Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
28Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”
29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Phat, posted 06-07-2022 5:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Phat, posted 06-12-2022 6:57 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 673 by Phat, posted 06-12-2022 6:59 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 672 of 728 (895182)
06-12-2022 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Tangle
06-08-2022 12:08 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Why should I listen to The suggestions or commands of a character limited to a book. )(according to you).

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2022 12:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2022 2:24 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 673 of 728 (895183)
06-12-2022 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Tangle
06-08-2022 12:08 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Why should I listen to The suggestions or commands of a character limited to a book. (according to you).

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2022 12:08 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by AZPaul3, posted 06-12-2022 7:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6835
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 674 of 728 (895184)
06-12-2022 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by Phat
06-12-2022 6:59 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
I'll let Tangle respond to the first one.
Why should I listen to The suggestions or commands of a character limited to a book.
[grammar: nazi] ? [/grammar]
You shouldn't.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by Phat, posted 06-12-2022 6:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8579
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 675 of 728 (895185)
06-13-2022 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 672 by Phat
06-12-2022 6:57 PM


Re: Whose Money Is It Anyway?
Phat writes:
Why should I listen to The suggestions or commands of a character limited to a book. )(according to you).
Because you profess to believe in the book, the man and what he says. It's not me saying you have to do it, I just quoted directly from what Jesus says in the book you say you believe in.
But it's obvious from what you actually do rather than what you say, that you do not believe it at all.
To me he's a fictional character in a book, but you tell us that he's real, not only then but also now. Yet you don't do what he says you must do. The only interpretation is that you don't believe in him either.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Phat, posted 06-12-2022 6:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by Phat, posted 06-14-2022 2:33 PM Tangle has replied

  
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