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Author Topic:   Neither a theist nor an atheist
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 15 of 118 (732512)
07-07-2014 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by granpa
07-07-2014 10:52 AM


In the purely empirical world view, a person is seen as just a "collection of atoms"
Actually, no. In pure empiricism the best you could do is say 'everything I have observed sufficiently closely has been made of atoms'. Unless the empiricist has observe all humans at the molecular scale they cannot claim that a person is 'seen' to be a 'collection of atoms'.
A pure empiricists that reasons that since everything they've seen closely is made of atoms, and since the theory 'everything is made of atoms' produces a coherent explanation that explains new things and produces predicts etc, therefore we can expect that person x is made of atoms...would be using rationalism plus empiricism.
. It fails, however, to take into account the complex emergent phenomena that make a human being so much more than "just atoms".
Emergent properties are just as observable (if not more so) as molecular ones. So no, empiricists would not fail to take emergent phenomena into account. Indeed - the observation of phenomena is their characteristic!
Have you confused empiricism with reductionism?
What does any of this have to do with Nohadism and theism?

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 Message 1 by granpa, posted 07-07-2014 10:52 AM granpa has replied

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 Message 16 by granpa, posted 07-07-2014 9:04 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 18 of 118 (732515)
07-07-2014 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by granpa
07-07-2014 9:04 PM


No they wont fail to do so if they are also rationalists
Why would an empiricist require reason to get to emergent properties? What reasoning is in place to infer that water is wet, for instance? It seems like something you can get to by sensing the wetness of water, without needing to use reason.

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 Message 20 by granpa, posted 07-08-2014 12:08 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 27 of 118 (732536)
07-08-2014 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by granpa
07-08-2014 12:08 AM


People subscribing to the purely empirical world view think that since we are "just atoms"
You claimed, I disputed it, and your response is to repeat it? What do you think empirical means?
The empirical world view holds that knowledge can be acquired through percetptual/sensory experience.
The fact is that emergent properties are accessible to our senses, more than the existence of atoms are. So you are entirely wrong.
The mind is an emergent property
And empiricists have experience of at least one mind.
emergence is one of those concepts that is simple and obvious once you understand it but which can be quite slippery and hard to grasp for those that are unfamiliar with it
Sure, but its real easy to experience emergent phenomena. In fact, our brains are pretty much wired to do so.

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