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Author Topic:   Neither a theist nor an atheist
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 8 of 118 (732505)
07-07-2014 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by granpa
07-07-2014 10:52 AM


Atheists are not sociopaths
You seem to start your message by contrasting the differences between theist and atheist and leads me to believe you're going to talk about those two things.
Then your message starts talking about empiricism and rationalism.
I'm not sure if these are two different topics, or the same thing using different words.
But, if you're trying to place a similarity between empiricism and atheism... there is none, and you're very wrong.
Atheists do not think people have no meaning because they're "just atoms." Or anything like that.
Atheists give people lots of meaning... they just don't think that meaning comes from God.
The only people who think other people have no meaning are sociopaths.
Atheists are not sociopaths
granpa writes:
the only laws people were ever required to keep are the Noahide laws. If you keep those then you are righteous and that is all anybody needs to be.
Actually, people were never required to keep any laws except the ones we make up. It's good to know that they're all made up.
And no, keeping Noahide laws doesn't make you righteous... especially if you're keeping the laws only to "be righteous."
Anyone and everyone is righteous as long as they don't hurt other people. It's as simple (and complicated...) as that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by granpa, posted 07-07-2014 10:52 AM granpa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by granpa, posted 07-07-2014 3:48 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 28 of 118 (732537)
07-08-2014 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by granpa
07-07-2014 3:48 PM


Re: Atheists are not sociopaths
granpa writes:
I do, however, believe that both theists and atheists are infected with all or nothing thinking...
Yeah, that's a people-thing.
Going with a decision and sticking to it is closer to animal-instinctual thinking. It's a basic mode and many people do it, sometimes without noticing.
...and that the only way to rid oneself of this infection is to find the middle path
No. Not at all
It's not like "the middle path" is immune to this sort of thing. Because the middle-path is still walked by people... and people do this.
What helps is using our intelligence. Think about things and make informed, intelligent decisions about them.
Atheists can do this (and many do).
Theists can do this (and many do).
Middle-path walkers can do this (and many do).
But the middle-path doesn't make it easier or better to do this... the only thing that makes it easer and better is education and a willingness/motivation to learn how to help other people instead of hurt them.
It's quite possible that you use your intelligence and also walk the middle path... but that doesn't mean anything. There's no connection there. You may have used your intelligence to find the middle path... and that leads you to believe the middle path helps people use their intelligence. But this isn't true.
By telling others "you should be on the middle path" you are actually retarding them from using their own intelligence to figure it out. This sort of... backfires... on the whole notion of your end-game (people intellectually thinking instead of instinctually following).
It's not the middle-path that's helping you. It's simply not-being-instinctual and actually using your intelligence (and also having a motivation to help others).
Those that use their intelligence to find the atheistic path find the same sort of balance.
Those that use their intelligence to find the theistic path also find the same sort of balance.
It is definitely not restricted to "the middle path" in any way.
One of the seven laws of Noah is the requirement to have laws and set up a governing body of justice (e.g. courts)
A governing body of justice is more of a common-sense thing then a "significant law."
With any large-enough group of people, there are going to be those who think it's easier to take advantage of others and do things without regard to the well-being of others. It's simply common-sense that some group should exist to protect the rest of the population from these wingnuts.
I don't have an issue with making it a law. But if you're trying to say it's significant that it's a law... then, well... meh. It's as significant as a law that says "Thou shall not kill." Um... yeah, that's kinda obvious. There's no real need for any higher intelligence to figure this sort of stuff out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by granpa, posted 07-07-2014 3:48 PM granpa has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 66 of 118 (732819)
07-11-2014 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by granpa
07-09-2014 12:20 AM


1 cup of Hydrogen
granpa writes:
the possibility that other universes might have different laws from our own is a reasonable possibility. But they must follow some sort of laws of cause and effect and that means it isn't magic
Oh? Why's that? Are you privy to the rules of universe-making?
Did you just say that other universes can have different laws from ours, but they must follow the same laws?
Other universes (if they exist) do not depend on your ability to fathom their existence.
Just like God and other Spaghetti Monsters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by granpa, posted 07-09-2014 12:20 AM granpa has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 96 of 118 (733221)
07-15-2014 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
07-14-2014 11:16 PM


Neither theist nor atheist knows best
Faith writes:
If you simply refuse to believe there could be anything unseen of any worth then all the evidence there is won't lead you there.
I think there's plenty of "worth" in the Bible and faith in God for some people. Perhaps you are one of those people.
I just don't see (or "unsee") any unique "worth" in the Bible or faith in God.
For some people, their faith fills them with a sense of confidence... a never ending source of motivation and will power and spiritual fulfillment.
These are all fantastic traits, and I think that those who find such things in their faith should continue their faith for the full support it provides.
The problem, though... is that people are different.
And you can say that "the Bible is for everyone!" all you'd like. It doesn't change the simple, observable facts that this is completely incorrect.
For some people, the Bible cannot provide any "worth."
For some people, faith is powerless and doesn't provide any worth either.
This doesn't mean "they're doing it wrong" and they're shutting the door. This is possible, but not necessarily correct. It's also quite possible that people can be honest and just different from you and just not get anything from the Bible and faith in God.
They are quite capable of finding that same "worth," though. Just through different means... because they're different from you.
Theists can find that worth by different means.
Atheists can find that worth by different means.
Neither theists nor atheists can also find that worth by different means.
The thing is... people are all different. It's such a simple, obvious fact that I'm surprised it's forgotten so often.
One thing just plain doesn't work for everybody for anything at all simply because people are different.
We all run into this everyday for pretty much everything we ever do.
Do we all drive the same car? No. Because we're different.
Do we all like the same foods? No. Because we're different.
Do we all talk the same way? Walk the same way? Breathe the same way? No. Because we're different.
Taking these things into account, is it really any surprise that people feel in different ways and think in different ways?
I understand it's not quite as obvious as us all having different facial features. But, seriously, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that people who like different kinds of ice-cream may think about things in different ways.
That "worth" is different for each of us because of the differences in our intellectual processes simply because we're different people.
That doesn't make you right and me wrong, or the other way around. It's just acknowledging the fact that we are, indeed, different.
The same nothing-else-compares sense of love and support and empowerment you get from faith can be obtained through other means for people who do not "connect" with faith as you do.
Some find it in the confidence of science.
Some find it in the mysteries of the universe.
Some find it in the doubt that pervades all of our abilities to understand anything.
Some find it in God.
Some find it in their relationships (children or family or friends).
The thing is... for it to really be "worth" for a person, that person needs to understand themselves and make sure they follow the path that aligns with their intellectual thought processes. If you just do what someone else says... you're taking a gamble that you are "the same" as that other person. Sometimes this works out (especially if you have similar backgrounds). Usually it doesn't. But if you start at the beginning... finding out who you are first and then moving on from there... then you remove the gamble.
Even if God does exist. He still can't give "the most worth" to all people. He made people too different. He's made at least a few people require "no God" in order to achieve the same worth you get from your faith in God.
The differences are obvious to all of us.
They are easily shrugged off and excused away or ignored, though. ("Oh, he doesn't get it because he's just weird!") Such defense mechanisms run deep in those who are not confident in their own sense of worth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 07-15-2014 2:39 PM Stile has replied
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 07-15-2014 3:00 PM Stile has replied
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-15-2014 3:22 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 105 of 118 (733283)
07-15-2014 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
07-15-2014 2:39 PM


Re: Neither theist nor atheist knows best
Phat writes:
I might point out, though that we all breathe oxygen. We all need that same substance. Perhaps Faith is arguing that this is the same way spiritually.
I would, actually, agree that we all need to develop our spiritual side, as we all need to develop our ability to breathe.
I can also see your counter-argument, however.
It's not so much a counter-argument as it is a larger explanation... going from small-scope to large-scope.
I'm not trying to say that faith should be countered in any way. That is also wrong in my opinion.
I'm trying to say that "faith in God is the only way to be spiritual" is limiting yourself to a small-scope... wearing horse-blinders.
It's obvious to everyone that many, many people are very spiritual without any faith in God.
Move from the small-scope into the large-scope.
Faith in God is not the only way to be spiritual.
Breathing through your mouth is not the only way to breathe.
You can breathe through your nose, you can do it loudly, you can do it quietly... find what works best for you in whatever situation you find yourself in.
You can build your spiritual nature in many different ways as well.
You can use faith in God.
You can use faith in Allah.
You can use faith in whatever you think will be useful.
You can forget about faith entirely and use evidence and feedback (science) to guide your spiritual development.
You can focus on the mysteries of the universe.
You can lose yourself in a good comic-book story.
You can spend quality time with family or friends.
You can help out people you don't know.
You can post anonymously on message boards you find interesting.
(I hope you get the point that this list can go on...)
There is no single, specific "right way and wrong way" for everyone in general.
However, there definitely is a "right way and wrong way" for you, personally.
If you do what someone else tells you to do... you're gambling that "the right way for you" will be the same as it is for them.
If you search your own feelings and find out what makes you tick... you can help make sure you're on the right path towards the best spiritual development you're capable of.
Perhaps the point is that regardless of what people believe or feel that they want there is a common reality that is, in fact best for everyone.
Except, of course, for the obvious and clear facts staring us all in the face that prove beyond any shadow of any doubt that people are different and one thing actually does not work for everyone.
You can say differently all you like, but all anyone has to do is step into any public space to see that people are different and "one thing will work for everyone" is nothing more than a crude attempt at over-simplification.
Have you ever been to a funeral? Is everyone crying?
Have you ever been to a wedding? Is everyone cheering?
Yes, we all have a spiritual side.
But, no, we can't all develop it in the same way. We're just all too different. This fact is only up for debate if you ignore everyone who is different from you...
I understand the desire for all of us to be the same. It's much simpler and easier to understand.
But wanting things to be simple doesn't stop humans from being complicated beings.
Children understand this point quite readily. It's adults who teach them otherwise. When did you lose your ability to identify and celebrate the differences in your fellow brethren?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 07-15-2014 2:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 106 of 118 (733286)
07-15-2014 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
07-15-2014 3:00 PM


Re: Bible says only one way
Faith writes:
If God has ordained only one way to salvation, choosing any other way is a terrible deception to avoid at all costs.
A valid statement. I completely agree that the Bible says God is required.
It's a good thing that the Bible is just wrong, since it just doesn't describe what we can see right in front of ourselves... lots of different people who require lots of different methods.
You can ignore reality and stick with the Bible.
Or you can ignore the Bible and stick with reality.
You're lucky. The reality (community/city/state...) you live in conforms close-enough to the Bible you hold so dearly. This is a wonderful place to be, you should be very thankful.
Others are not so lucky.
Some people cannot find any solace in the Bible because it simply doesn't speak to them. No matter how much you say it does... you cannot force the Bible to connect with some people. With some it is simply impossible.
Some people just don't care about the Bible because Christianity isn't a big deal for whatever reason.
Those people need to find an alternate route.
Some of those people have found an alternate route.
Those people are just as spiritually fulfilled as you claim to be (and some of them don't even have to try to convince others about it).
Those people are just as happy and secure in their current state and afterlife as you are.
The Bible is not required to be completely spiritually fulfilled... including salvation, this is a fact.
The Bible certainly is required for Biblical salvation. But, well... that only matters if you think the Bible is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 07-15-2014 3:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
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