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Author Topic:   Who hurts the US Healthcare system worse?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 316 (683410)
12-10-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
12-10-2012 10:26 AM


Incidentally, that's also the reason your doctor friend graduated with 200k in loans; the cartelized medical school system can afford to demand that kind of tuition.
Medical school is expensive, but only about 1/3 of the typical school loan is for tuition. The typical student starts accumulating school debt turing undergraduate school. Can't blame that on medical schools.
The overwhelming bulk of all school loans including medical school is living expenses, and some of that is from students leaving exorbitantly.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2012 10:26 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 12-10-2012 1:14 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2012 1:45 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 316 (683496)
12-11-2012 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by crashfrog
12-10-2012 10:22 PM


Re: The Personal Responsibility Paradox
Type 2 diabetes isn't actually caused by obesity.
True, at least in some fashion, but probably a bit misleading.
From the American Diabetes Association:
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/diabetes-myths/
quote:
Myth: Eating too much sugar causes diabetes.
Fact: The answer is not so simple. Type 1 diabetes is caused by genetics and unknown factors that trigger the onset of the disease; type 2 diabetes is caused by genetics and lifestyle factors.
Being overweight does increase your risk for developing type 2 diabetes, and a diet high in calories from any source contributes to weight gain. Research has shown that drinking sugary drinks is linked to type 2 diabetes.
I think it is fair to say that being overweight is not 'The' cause, because heredity factors are involved. However being overweight is a risk factor.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by crashfrog, posted 12-10-2012 10:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2012 10:20 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 316 (683499)
12-11-2012 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Theodoric
12-10-2012 1:14 PM


Medical school is expensive, but only about 1/3 of the typical school loan is for tuition.
Any source for this?
I note that in your anecdote that your wife's tuition was less than half of her school loan.
The student also has to live. How much do you think a student should pay to live for a year? 200K in costs for 4 years of medical school is not exorbitant.
That kind depends on what you think a student's standard of living ought to be. I wouldn't give my kids 25k per year while they were attending school. I understand that graduate and medical students don't want to live like undergraduates. I'm not so sure why we should not expect them to.
My own experience while attending law school is that some of my contemporaries were piling up 100-150k of debt during a three year period. Tuition at the time was chewing up something less than 50k for the three years at some of the better law schools.
When I attended grad school after leaving the military, I did live like a refugee in order to make ends meet without working. I didn't incur any debt. Perhaps people don't do that anymore.
I'm not really challenging crashfrog's idea that medical school is too expensive, although I'm not all that sympathetic to his issues with unpaid internships.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 12-10-2012 1:14 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2012 10:28 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 38 by Theodoric, posted 12-11-2012 11:04 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 316 (683503)
12-11-2012 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
12-11-2012 10:20 AM


Re: The Personal Responsibility Paradox
Being obese doesn't mean being unhealthy; body fat isn't a proxy for health. I thought we covered this already
Being obese is risky health behavior. That's not the samething as saying the obesity is a proxy for health. I am not going to argue that BMI is a perfect indicator of obesity.
Is it your opinion that the American Diabetic Association is wrong about obesity being a risk factor for type 1 and 2 diabetes? If not, then I don't understand your point.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2012 10:20 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2012 2:36 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 316 (683504)
12-11-2012 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
12-11-2012 10:28 AM


* not well researched *
Edited by NoNukes, : deleted

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2012 10:28 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 316 (683514)
12-11-2012 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Taq
12-11-2012 1:05 PM


Not really. The skinny and well exercised 75 year old with leukemia is more of a burden than the 25 year old fat kid with no health problems
Is this the right comparison? The older person who was once the 25 year old fat kid is probably statistically more likely to be a health problem.
I think you could make an argument that it is irresponsible, but we live in a free country where irresponsible is not illegal.
I think you could make the argument that a person who makes legal choices to be unhealthy is acting immorally. While it would be immoral to deny such a person health care, a different question is whether it would be immoral to make such a person pay more for his/her care?
Should we also ban poor people from hospitals because they are a burden on the system?
We do ration health care to poor people. Perhaps that is immoral, but isn't a poor person is going to get care that will simply make his condition stable?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Taq, posted 12-11-2012 1:05 PM Taq has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 199 of 316 (686107)
12-29-2012 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Eli
12-29-2012 1:12 AM


Re: Re Old Folks
Only people who make minimum wage and don't understand economics think raising it is a good idea, because they want a free handout.
I understand the economic point you are making, but people who are making minimum wage actually have to do work in order to get what you are calling a free handout.
You should earn your living, not ask the government to force your employer to pay you more than you are worth.
And of course what they are worth, is whatever the business decides to pay them after the business owner pays himself. If you work at diligently and hard at a job for a full day, is the value of human time and effort truly only the amount that the owner, who may actually be fairly lousy at business, is able or willing to pay?
When businesses pay a worker less than a livable wage, the rest of us pick up the tab by having to supplement that pay with food stamps and free medical care for the worker and his family.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Eli, posted 12-29-2012 1:12 AM Eli has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Eli, posted 12-29-2012 2:06 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 201 of 316 (686111)
12-29-2012 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Eli
12-29-2012 2:06 AM


Re: Re Old Folks
I don't agree that increased wages as a handout. If that were the case, then every pretty much every raise is a handout. If we allow an employer to pay wages so low that the community has to subsidize them, then it is the employer who is getting the handout.
Increasing the value of the dollar, for example, to maximize buying power without changing the nominal value of wages seems like a good way to push people over the poverty line, rather than moving the nominal value of wages and then moving the nominal value of the poverty line in the same direction.
I don't see how your suggestion could possibly work. If a dollar is increased in value, so that one dollar purchases more goods and services, that would mean fewer dollars in the till for everyone who is selling anything, and thus fewer dollars to divvy up between employer and employee thus lowering wages. How would this help?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Eli, posted 12-29-2012 2:06 AM Eli has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Eli, posted 12-30-2012 1:30 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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