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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3166 of 3189 (897043)
08-28-2022 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3165 by Theodoric
08-28-2022 1:02 PM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Theodoric writes:
And many people know the stories in your bible are fables.
Dredge writes:
How do they "know" that?
Theodoric writes:
The same way we know little Red Riding Hood is a fable.
Except Little Red Riding Hood was presented to us in a book of Fables. Even many children *knew* that it was simply a fable.
You were prone to accept "data" from mythicists such as Carrier who earn a living lecturing about why the Bible is a myth. I will argue that non-believers and critical thinkers will be more swayed by data and purported facts than believers.
And it can readily and rapidly swing the other way, in the event of a major national crisis where emotion plays a larger role than simple data.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3165 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 1:02 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3167 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 1:39 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 3167 of 3189 (897045)
08-28-2022 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3166 by Phat
08-28-2022 1:32 PM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
No. You are incorrect. I examined each and neither meets the criteria for reality. Carrier has not affected my belief set at all. He and others like him have helped me develop a more scholarly understanding of the subject. No more, no less.
Read my signature about facts.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3166 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3168 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:59 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3168 of 3189 (897047)
08-28-2022 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3167 by Theodoric
08-28-2022 1:39 PM


IF GOD exists
Theodorics sig writes:
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
It is not a fact that Jesus never existed.
It is a fact that there is no conclusive evidence apart from oral tradition.
It is not a fact that science will replace religion and beliefs.
It is a possibility. Many fight for the comfort and inner certainty of a personal God and religion.
Others fight for the elimination of such beliefs, assuming that society will be better off without it.
jar said it best: If GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of any evidence that He does not exist. If GOD does not exist, GOD does NOT exist regardless of any evidence or reasoned argumentation that He, She, It does exist.
And it seems true that organized religion has done harm to human development.
In my opinion, belief itself has done more good than harm.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3167 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 1:39 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3169 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 2:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 3169 of 3189 (897049)
08-28-2022 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3168 by Phat
08-28-2022 1:59 PM


Re: IF GOD exists
Nice strawman. I never said it was a fact Jesus never existed.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3168 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 3170 of 3189 (897075)
08-29-2022 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 3145 by Phat
08-26-2022 3:49 PM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Phat writes:
I understand him. He claims that the character does not exist apart from the book.
But that is NOT the point. The point has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus ever existed.
The point is about what YOU believe (And conversely what I do NOT believe.)
The point is that IF you really believed in Jesus, you would do what He said; you would TRUST Him to take care of you even if what He told you to do was impractical.
You not only do not DO what He said; you SCOFF at what He said. When you scoff at the idea of giving it all up, you are actually scoffing at the idea of Him taking care of you; you are scoffing at Him.
And, of course, what He told YOU to do has nothing to do with ME. YOUR belief would direct what YOU do, if you really believed it. YOUR belief does not direct what I do.
I'm running out of different ways to say it. I may have to learn Spanish. Maybe you could understand that.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3145 by Phat, posted 08-26-2022 3:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 3171 of 3189 (897076)
08-29-2022 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3149 by Phat
08-27-2022 2:09 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Phat writes:
Now, on the other hand, you *could* claim that Christians have been monstrous and evil, but for every bad instance you gave, I could show a good one.
Hitler loved his dog.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3149 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 2:09 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 3172 of 3189 (897077)
08-29-2022 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3154 by Phat
08-27-2022 7:43 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Phat writes:
I am talking about Jesus onward...not the OT God.
As i have pointed out to you before, Jesus talked about eternal punishment (Matthew 25), so you can't get Him off the hook that easily.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3154 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 7:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3174 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 3:47 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 3173 of 3189 (897078)
08-29-2022 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3159 by Phat
08-27-2022 12:03 PM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Phat writes:
The basic premise is that the yardstick is not the OT God (or written descriptions thereof) but Jesus Himself.
Matthew 25. Your basic premise fails. Therefore your argument fails.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3159 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 12:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3174 of 3189 (897251)
09-01-2022 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 3172 by ringo
08-29-2022 12:16 PM


Monsters: Its All In Your Head
ringo writes:
As i have pointed out to you before, Jesus talked about eternal punishment (Matthew 25), so you can't get Him off the hook that easily.
How do you know that Jesus was speaking to the people? How do you know that Jesus was not addressing the spirits/memes/demons that oppressed the people?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3172 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3175 by ringo, posted 09-01-2022 11:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20022
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 3175 of 3189 (897264)
09-01-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 3174 by Phat
09-01-2022 3:47 AM


Re: Monsters: Its All In Your Head
Phat writes:
How do you know that Jesus was speaking to the people?
I know because I read the Bible:
quote:
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately....
No demons.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3174 by Phat, posted 09-01-2022 3:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
EWolf
Member
Posts: 17
From: Lehigh Acres, Fl
Joined: 11-10-2021


Message 3176 of 3189 (897963)
09-16-2022 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2786 by Tangle
05-26-2022 5:26 PM


Hello Tangle,
Please forgive me for taking so long to answer.
EWolf writes:
​What do we do about the fact that we were told that God exist?
Tangle writes:
I heard that some bloke said something weird to a few other blokes about 2,000 years ago. Sadly the first bloke got himself killed by upsetting the local bosses.

That would have been the end of that except that 300 years later a pagan Roman emperor decided it would be good politics to create a new religion to join his territories together.

The rest is, well, you know the rest.
But don't we know all the rest of the story of the former character you spoke of? I take it that He was the one that died on the cross. Shouldn’t we see Him as unique that voluntarily gave His life instead of merely having been killed?
Why did He give His life but for the purpose of bringing you and me vital and otherwise impossible hope and that He conquered death for us? What do we think of anyone that gave His life for us? What do we think that such an individual thinks of you and me?
Yes, many supposedly similar religions rose up.
EWolf writes:
Where did our worth, dignity, and our right originate?
Tangle writes:
A lot of people reckon Allah did it. But it might have been Ik Onkar?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.
What did the US DOI tell us? Did it not say from God the Creator? That makes our worth very, very great! Isn’t that the basis of why the US separated from England to create a nation whose laws are based on the Bible? Its unfortunate our nation (the US) gradually strayed away from much of it.
Tangle writes:
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
(The above is a quote.)
Science is knowledge. Faith is trust that’s based on knowledge. A merchant cannot stand without his customers’ trust. Our trust in a good merchant is based on his good performance.
As written, “Know ye that the Lord He is God (Psalms 100:3).” Our faith (trust) in God is based on that knowledge. God then proves Himself beyond any doubt to us individually based on that trust.
ELD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2786 by Tangle, posted 05-26-2022 5:26 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3178 by nwr, posted 09-16-2022 8:34 PM EWolf has not replied
 Message 3180 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2022 3:30 AM EWolf has not replied
 Message 3181 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 8:41 AM EWolf has not replied
 Message 3183 by ringo, posted 09-17-2022 12:40 PM EWolf has not replied

  
EWolf
Member
Posts: 17
From: Lehigh Acres, Fl
Joined: 11-10-2021


Message 3177 of 3189 (897967)
09-16-2022 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2788 by AZPaul3
05-26-2022 6:38 PM


Hello AZPaul3,
EWolf writes:
​Where did our worth, dignity, and our right originate?
AZPaul3 writes:
Your reactions to society and society's reactions to you.
Really? Are our rights and worth dependent on what people think and are thus variable? Some think that we worth much and treat us accordingly. But others think that we are worth nothing and would point a loaded gun our way.
What standard that you think your and my worth are based on? Have we not been told? What does the DOI that’s based on the Bible tell us? Are they not from the Creator that's greater than us all?
ELD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2788 by AZPaul3, posted 05-26-2022 6:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3179 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 12:12 AM EWolf has not replied
 Message 3182 by Percy, posted 09-17-2022 8:48 AM EWolf has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6115
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 3178 of 3189 (897968)
09-16-2022 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3176 by EWolf
09-16-2022 8:19 PM


Shouldn’t we see Him as unique that voluntarily gave His life instead of merely having been killed?
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Does that sound like the exclamation of somebody who voluntarily gave his life?
Why did He give His life but for the purpose of bringing you and me vital and otherwise impossible hope and that He conquered death for us?
But that atonement story was made up after the fact.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3176 by EWolf, posted 09-16-2022 8:19 PM EWolf has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 3179 of 3189 (897969)
09-17-2022 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 3177 by EWolf
09-16-2022 8:34 PM


Are our rights and worth dependent on what people think and are thus variable?
There appears no other way for society to determine worth and rights except in relation to each other.
And, yes, you have ONLY those rights you can enforce. No more.
Where did you think your rights and your worth were calculated?
Are they not from the Creator that's greater than us all?
No they are not. There appears to be no creator. Can you show him to me?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3177 by EWolf, posted 09-16-2022 8:34 PM EWolf has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17255
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 3180 of 3189 (897972)
09-17-2022 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3176 by EWolf
09-16-2022 8:19 PM


quote:
But don't we know all the rest of the story of the former character you spoke of? I take it that He was the one that died on the cross. Shouldn’t we see Him as unique that voluntarily gave His life instead of merely having been killed?

We don’t know the story. The historical person is lost to us. We don’t know if he gave up his life voluntarily or not or why he did.
quote:
Why did He give His life but for the purpose of bringing you and me vital and otherwise impossible hope and that He conquered death for us? What do we think of anyone that gave His life for us? What do we think that such an individual thinks of you and me?
We just don’t know. There are many possibilities.
quote:
What did the US DOI tell us? Did it not say from God the Creator? That makes our worth very, very great! Isn’t that the basis of why the US separated from England to create a nation whose laws are based on the Bible? Its unfortunate our nation (the US) gradually strayed away from much of it.

Now there is a lot of falsehood there. The United States was founded as a secular state, where laws would not be based on the Bible. And it is sad that it has drifted away from that. It is not sad that you can no longer hang people for being Quakers, or deny Catholics the right to vote or hold office.
quote:
Science is knowledge. Faith is trust that’s based on knowledge. A merchant cannot stand without his customers’ trust. Our trust in a good merchant is based on his good performance.
Which is why we can’t trust Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3176 by EWolf, posted 09-16-2022 8:19 PM EWolf has not replied

  
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