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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3159 of 3207 (896956)
08-27-2022 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3157 by Theodoric
08-27-2022 11:55 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
The basic premise is that the yardstick is not the OT God (or written descriptions thereof) but Jesus Himself.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3157 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2022 11:55 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3173 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 12:18 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3160 of 3207 (896957)
08-27-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3158 by Theodoric
08-27-2022 11:58 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
And many don't. What's your point?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3158 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2022 11:58 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3161 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2022 12:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3166 of 3207 (897043)
08-28-2022 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3165 by Theodoric
08-28-2022 1:02 PM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Theodoric writes:
And many people know the stories in your bible are fables.
Dredge writes:
How do they "know" that?
Theodoric writes:
The same way we know little Red Riding Hood is a fable.
Except Little Red Riding Hood was presented to us in a book of Fables. Even many children *knew* that it was simply a fable.
You were prone to accept "data" from mythicists such as Carrier who earn a living lecturing about why the Bible is a myth. I will argue that non-believers and critical thinkers will be more swayed by data and purported facts than believers.
And it can readily and rapidly swing the other way, in the event of a major national crisis where emotion plays a larger role than simple data.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3165 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 1:02 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3167 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 1:39 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3168 of 3207 (897047)
08-28-2022 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3167 by Theodoric
08-28-2022 1:39 PM


IF GOD exists
Theodorics sig writes:
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
It is not a fact that Jesus never existed.
It is a fact that there is no conclusive evidence apart from oral tradition.
It is not a fact that science will replace religion and beliefs.
It is a possibility. Many fight for the comfort and inner certainty of a personal God and religion.
Others fight for the elimination of such beliefs, assuming that society will be better off without it.
jar said it best: If GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of any evidence that He does not exist. If GOD does not exist, GOD does NOT exist regardless of any evidence or reasoned argumentation that He, She, It does exist.
And it seems true that organized religion has done harm to human development.
In my opinion, belief itself has done more good than harm.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3167 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 1:39 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3169 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 2:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3174 of 3207 (897251)
09-01-2022 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 3172 by ringo
08-29-2022 12:16 PM


Monsters: Its All In Your Head
ringo writes:
As i have pointed out to you before, Jesus talked about eternal punishment (Matthew 25), so you can't get Him off the hook that easily.
How do you know that Jesus was speaking to the people? How do you know that Jesus was not addressing the spirits/memes/demons that oppressed the people?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3172 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3175 by ringo, posted 09-01-2022 11:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3184 of 3207 (898017)
09-17-2022 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3183 by ringo
09-17-2022 12:40 PM


wrong spirit
ringo writes:
He didn't "give" His life. It was taken - because He ran His mouth a bit too much
Now who is lying? You know darn well He gave His life!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3183 by ringo, posted 09-17-2022 12:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3185 by AZPaul3, posted 09-17-2022 4:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3186 by ringo, posted 09-18-2022 2:18 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3187 of 3207 (898106)
09-19-2022 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 3186 by ringo
09-18-2022 2:18 PM


Re: wrong spirit
His life was not taken from Him; He laid it down of Himself. This was His claim: "For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.
Where do you get the idea that His life was taken from Him by force?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3186 by ringo, posted 09-18-2022 2:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3188 by dwise1, posted 09-19-2022 2:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3189 by ringo, posted 09-19-2022 1:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3193 of 3207 (901432)
11-09-2022 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3191 by AZPaul3
10-19-2022 5:05 AM


The father of lies must have told you that.
You really need to pick better spirits as sources of information and/or inspiration

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3191 by AZPaul3, posted 10-19-2022 5:05 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3196 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2022 9:43 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 3197 by dwise1, posted 11-10-2022 10:09 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3194 of 3207 (901433)
11-09-2022 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3192 by ringo
10-19-2022 12:59 PM


Why should He step up? That would be admitting that His critics were right. And they were. Not!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3192 by ringo, posted 10-19-2022 12:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3198 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 11:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3195 of 3207 (901434)
11-09-2022 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3192 by ringo
10-19-2022 12:59 PM


Why should He give in to them? They fabricated lies about Him. He owed them no apology nor need to surrender to demons

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3192 by ringo, posted 10-19-2022 12:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3199 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 11:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3202 of 3207 (901692)
11-14-2022 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3201 by ringo
11-10-2022 12:21 PM


Sleep Paralysis
Wiki has extensive cultural recollections of sleep paralysis---and evil is mentioned in many cultures.the human perception of "evil" was caused by hallucinations.
Wiki writes:
Society and culture
Etymology
A 19th-century version of Füssli's The Nightmare (1781)
The original definition of sleep paralysis was codified by Samuel Johnson in his A Dictionary of the English Language as a nightmare, a term that evolved into our modern definition.
The term was first used and dubbed by British neurologist, S.A.K. Wilson in his 1928 dissertation, The Narcolepsies.[32] Such sleep paralysis was widely considered the work of demons, and more specifically incubi, which were thought to sit on the chests of sleepers. In Old English the name for these beings was mare or mære (from a proto-Germanic *marōn, cf. Old Norse mara), hence comes the mare in the word nightmare. The word might be cognate to Greek Marōn (in the Odyssey) and Sanskrit Māra.
Cultural significance and priming
Le Cauchemar (The Nightmare), by Eugène Thivier (1894)
Although the core features of sleep paralysis (e.g., atonia, a clear sensorium, and frequent hallucinations) appear to be universal, the ways in which they are experienced vary according to time, place, and culture.[9][33]
Over 100 terms have been identified for these experiences.[18] Some scientists have proposed sleep paralysis as an explanation for reports of paranormal and spiritual phenomena such as ghosts,[34][35] alien visits,[36] demons or demonic possession,[9][37] alien abduction experiences,[38][39] the night hag and shadow people haunting.[10][13]
According to some scientists, culture may be a major factor in shaping sleep paralysis.[37] When sleep paralysis is interpreted through a particular cultural filter, it may take on greater salience. For example, if sleep paralysis is feared in a certain culture, this fear could lead to conditioned fear, and thus worsen the experience, in turn leading to higher rates.[9][37] Consistent with this idea, high rates and long durations of immobility during sleep paralysis have been found in Egypt, where there are elaborate beliefs about sleep paralysis, involving malevolent spirit-like creatures, the jinn. [37]
Research has found that sleep paralysis is associated with great fear and fear of impending death in 50% of sufferers in Egypt.[37] A study comparing rates and characteristics of sleep paralysis in Egypt and Denmark found that the phenomenon is three times more common in Egypt versus Denmark.[37] In Denmark, unlike Egypt, there are no elaborate supernatural beliefs about sleep paralysis, and the experience is often interpreted as an odd physiological event, with overall shorter sleep paralysis episodes and fewer people (17%) fearing that they could die from it.[33]
Folklore
The night hag is a generic name for a folkloric creature found in cultures around the world, and which is used to explain the phenomenon of sleep paralysis. A common description is that a person feels a presence of a supernatural malevolent being that immobilizes the person as if standing on the chest.[40] This phenomenon goes by many names.
Cambodia
Sleep paralysis among Cambodians is known as “the ghost pushes you down,”[35] and entails the belief in dangerous visitations from deceased relatives.[35]
Egypt
In Egypt, sleep paralysis is conceptualized as a terrifying jinn attack. The jinn may even kill its victims.[33]
Italy
In the different regions of Italy there are many examples of supernatural beings associated with sleep paralysis. In the regions of Marche and Abruzzo, it is referred to as a Pandafeche attack;[9] the Pandafeche usually refers to an evil witch, sometimes a ghostlike spirit or a terrifying catlike creature, that mounts on the chest of the victim and tries to harm him. The only way to avoid her is to keep a bag of sand or beans close to the bed so that the witch will stop to count how many beans or sand grains are inside it. A similar tradition is present in Sardinian folklore, where the Ammuntadore is known as a creature that mounts on the people's chest during their sleep to give them nightmares, and that can change its shape according to the person's fears. In Northern Italy, specifically in the Tyrol area, the Trud is a witch that sits on the people's chest at night, making them unable to breathe; to chase her away, people should make the sign of the Cross, something that would need a great struggle in a situation of paralysis.[41]
Similar folklore is present in the Sannio area, around the city of Benevento, where the witch is called Janara.[42] In Southern Italy, sleep paralysis is usually explained with the presence of a sprite standing on the people's chest: if the person manages to catch the sprite (or steal his hat), in exchange for his freedom (or to have his hat back) he can reveal the hiding place of a rich treasure; this sprite has different names in different regions of Italy: Monaciello in Campania, Monachicchio in Basilicata, Laurieddhu or Scazzamurill in Apulia, Mazzmuredd in Molise.[42]
Newfoundland
In Newfoundland, sleep paralysis is referred to as the Old Hag,[34][43] and victims of a hagging are said to be hag-ridden upon awakening.[44] Victims report being completely conscious, but unable to speak or move, and report a person or an animal which sits upon their chest.[45] Despite the name, the attacker can be either male or female.[46] Some suggested cures or preventions for the Old Hag include sleeping with a Bible under the pillow,[45] calling the sleeper's name backwards[47] or in an extreme example, sleeping with a shingle or board embedded with nails strapped to the chest.[48] This object was called a Hag Board.[49] The Old Hag is well-enough known in the province to be a pop culture figure, appearing in films and plays[50] as well as in crafted objects.[51]
Nigeria
Nigeria[52] has a myriad interpretation of the cause of SP. This is due to the very diversified culture and belief system that exists there.
United States
Sleep paralysis is sometimes interpreted as space alien abduction in the United States.[53]
Literature
Various forms of magic and spiritual possession were also advanced as causes in literature. In nineteenth-century Europe, the vagaries of diet were thought to be responsible. For example, in Charles Dickens's A Christmas Carol, Ebenezer Scrooge attributes the ghost he sees to "... an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato..." In a similar vein, the Household Cyclopedia (1881) offers the following advice about nightmares:
"Great attention is to be paid to regularity and choice of diet. Intemperance of every kind is hurtful, but nothing is more productive of this disease than drinking bad wine. Of eatables, those which are most prejudicial are all fat and greasy meats and pastry... Moderate exercise contributes in a superior degree to promote the digestion of food and preventing flatulence; those, however, who are necessarily confined to a sedentary occupation, should particularly avoid applying themselves to study or bodily labor immediately after eating... Going to bed before the usual hour is a frequent cause of night-mare, as it either occasions the patient to sleep too long or to lie long awake in the night. Passing a whole night or part of a night without rest likewise gives birth to the disease, as it occasions the patient, on a succeeding night, to sleep too soundly. Indulging in sleep too late in the morning is an almost certain method to bring on the paroxysm, and the more frequently it returns, the greater strength it acquires; the propensity to sleep at this time is almost irresistible."[54]
J. M. Barrie, the author of the Peter Pan stories, may have had sleep paralysis. He said of himself ‘In my early boyhood it was a sheet that tried to choke me in the night.’[55] He also described several incidents in the Peter Pan stories that indicate that he was familiar with an awareness of a loss of muscle tone whilst in a dream-like state. For example, Maimie is asleep but calls out ‘What was that...It is coming nearer! It is feeling your bed with its horns-it is boring for [into] you.[56] and when the Darling children were dreaming of flying, Barrie says ‘Nothing horrid was visible in the air, yet their progress had become slow and labored, exactly as if they were pushing their way through hostile forces. Sometimes they hung in the air until Peter had beaten on it with his fists.’[57] Barrie describes many parasomnias and neurological symptoms in his books and uses them to explore the nature of consciousness from an experiential point of view.[58]
Documentary films
The Nightmare is a 2015 documentary that discusses the causes of sleep paralysis as seen through extensive interviews with participants, and the experiences are re-enacted by professional actors. In synopsis, it proposes that such cultural phenomena as alien abduction, the near-death experience, and shadow people can, in many cases, be attributed to sleep paralysis. The "real-life" horror film debuted at the Sundance Film Festival on January 26, 2015, and premiered in theatres on June 5, 2015.[59]
In fact, I remember one time that I experienced sleep paralysis and I too thought I was being attacked by a demon. The reason was the intense fear that I experienced during the paralysis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3201 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3203 by dwise1, posted 11-14-2022 10:41 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 3204 by ringo, posted 11-14-2022 11:15 AM Phat has replied
 Message 3205 by Stile, posted 11-14-2022 11:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3206 of 3207 (901793)
11-14-2022 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3204 by ringo
11-14-2022 11:15 AM


Re: Sleep Paralysis
ringo writes:
So you know what the cause of "demon attacks" is and yet you still believe in literal demons?
No, I know the cause of sleep paralysis. If demons were involved, they would only be attacking people that way...which makes no sense. Your problem, OTOH, is that you have eliminated any possible supernatural (unexplained) activity from either the Holy Spirit or the wannabe creations simply due to a lack of evidence.
Plus I suspect that you don't want there to be any sort of alien overlord at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3204 by ringo, posted 11-14-2022 11:15 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3207 by ringo, posted 11-15-2022 11:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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