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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8676
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 3151 of 3189 (896943)
08-27-2022 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 3149 by Phat
08-27-2022 2:09 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Phat writes:
Because you cant have it both ways. You cant claim that GOD and Jesus were limited to characters in a book and then also claim that GOD was a Monster. The Big Bad Wolf was a monster. Yet we all know that its just a story.
Of course we can have it both ways. Just like the big bad wolf, your God is portrayed in the book as an evil bastard and we can point that out to you.
We can show you that the character in the book says and does evil things or that the Jesus in the book wants you to do things that you'd rather not do, without believing for a second that it's anything but fiction.
And you can do it for the big, bad wolf stories. So how do you maintain this little facade of yours that pretends that because we don't believe the stories we can't simply point out to you what the stories say?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3149 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 2:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 3152 of 3189 (896944)
08-27-2022 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3150 by Phat
08-27-2022 2:11 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
For most the world, Phat, your gods are false and violent things discarded in favor of some other false and violent things. Except for the extreme level of evil your god's name has caused in humanity, your gods are no different and no more viable than any others.
Your god's legacy of evil is long. Right from the start there are your god's crimes in the Levant. How long did it take Abraham to go from inventing a god to killing for him? Then his name crushes Europe populations. And with the European created evil of colonization, your god's evil spread everywhere the Europeans went through all the world. To now ... today where Islam, another one of your god's faces, is outdoing Christianity for evil, terror and bloodshed in the world.
I lay it all, ALL, on your table, Phat. They are all the same. They all are your evil god of Genesis.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3150 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 2:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5287
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 3153 of 3189 (896946)
08-27-2022 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 3150 by Phat
08-27-2022 2:11 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
For most Christians, GOD is Jesus. Jesus is God's character. And I don't see Him doing Evil things.
To paraphrase from Saint Gump: "Evil is as evil does."
But it runs far deeper than that simple formulation.
Do you remember Nixon and Watergate? I mean did you personally live through that time? (Personal confession: in college I worked two summers in West Germany, 1973 and 1974, so I was in a kind of news black-out for Nixon's final days in 1974) Nixon's basic defense for everything was: "If the President does it, then it cannot be against the law." Dershowitz' defense of Trump in his second impeachment was basically that the President could anything he fucking well wants to and it would not be illegal -- basically the Nixon defense of 1974. But our lesson from 1974 was supposed to be that nobody, not even the President of the United States of America, is above the law.
So theists will argue that God is Good and anything God does and tells us to do is good. So all the genocides in the Old Testament were all good and moral just because God had commanded them. In modern times, assassins of abortion providers felt completely justified to commit their atrocities because "God had commanded it" -- despite the only reference in the entire Bible, New and Old, is to commit an abortion in this particular situation (you suspect that it might not be yours) and OBTW here are instructions for performing that required abortion (somewhere in Numbers 5 -- you're the Bible geek so you find it).
The fundamental problem is that morality is a product of society, not of religion.
OK, so maybe what the Bible describes was acceptable morally at that time, but society has evolved considerably since then. As has morality itself. What in biblical times was considered moral is no longer moral in our modern sense. Therefore, "moral" stances in the Bible are now looked upon as horrific atrocities.
What "God" was doing in ancient times as being "good" is now viewed by almost everybody as being absolutely evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3150 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 2:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3154 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 7:43 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3154 of 3189 (896949)
08-27-2022 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3153 by dwise1
08-27-2022 5:09 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
I see your line of thought and agree, but again, I am talking about Jesus onward...not the OT God.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3153 by dwise1, posted 08-27-2022 5:09 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3172 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 12:16 PM Phat has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6115
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 3155 of 3189 (896950)
08-27-2022 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3149 by Phat
08-27-2022 2:09 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Because you cant have it both ways.
Yet you just demonstrated that you can, with your example of The Big Bad Wolf.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3149 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 2:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3156 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 11:39 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3156 of 3189 (896951)
08-27-2022 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3155 by nwr
08-27-2022 8:56 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Yet everybody knows that the story of the Big Bad Wolf and Little Red Riding Hood is a story that is a Fable. Not everyone by any means agrees that the Bible is similar to Fable or Mythos. And there are compelling arguments both ways.
I reread and see Tangles' point that it doesn't really matter--that you can still point out the character flaws while holding to the idea that it is all a Fable. Which brings up a memory. I used to listen to Dr.Charles Stanley, a conservative Pastor/Preacher on the radio and hear him always lift up Jesus and tell me how special that relationship was to any Christian. Then 9-11 happened. And I couldn't believe that Dr.Stanley was now talking of his boyhood during Pearl Harbor and essentially saying that war was OK and often necessary.

Edited by Phat, .


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3155 by nwr, posted 08-27-2022 8:56 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3158 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2022 11:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3157 of 3189 (896954)
08-27-2022 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 3149 by Phat
08-27-2022 2:09 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Still don't even get the basic premise of the argument. After 20 years you are actually not even back to where you started. Not sure how anyone can be this willfully ignorant.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3149 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 2:09 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3159 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 12:03 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3158 of 3189 (896955)
08-27-2022 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 3156 by Phat
08-27-2022 11:39 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
And many people know the stories in your bible are fables.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3156 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 11:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3160 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 12:04 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 3162 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 2:26 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 3164 by Dredge, posted 08-28-2022 12:47 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3159 of 3189 (896956)
08-27-2022 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3157 by Theodoric
08-27-2022 11:55 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
The basic premise is that the yardstick is not the OT God (or written descriptions thereof) but Jesus Himself.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3157 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2022 11:55 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3173 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 12:18 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16368
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3160 of 3189 (896957)
08-27-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3158 by Theodoric
08-27-2022 11:58 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
And many don't. What's your point?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3158 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2022 11:58 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3161 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2022 12:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3161 of 3189 (896960)
08-27-2022 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3160 by Phat
08-27-2022 12:04 PM


Make an actual argument or shut up
You truly are unable to grasp basic points. This is not a faith forum. You need to back the crap you spew with at least a basic argument. Saying the book says it, so it is true does not cut it. Hopefully, the mods will hold you to forum rules. You had a lot of goodwill saved up. I think you have run through it all by now.
Sad watching how you gave descended into madness.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3160 by Phat, posted 08-27-2022 12:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5646
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3162 of 3189 (896965)
08-27-2022 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3158 by Theodoric
08-27-2022 11:58 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Theodoric writes:
And many people know the stories in your bible are fables.
That is as much of a belief as what Phat writes and doesn't make it true either. My belief is that the Bible is a collection of mythologies, personal beliefs, or giving an account of events which may or may not have a cultural or personal bias. By faith we are called to sort out what God has to say to us collectively or as individuals to what is written through all of it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3158 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2022 11:58 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3163 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2022 3:54 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8676
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 3163 of 3189 (896980)
08-27-2022 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 3162 by GDR
08-27-2022 2:26 PM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Yikes, GDR, wtf have you been?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3162 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 2:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1672
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 3164 of 3189 (897039)
08-28-2022 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3158 by Theodoric
08-27-2022 11:58 AM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
Theodoric writes:
And many people know the stories in your bible are fables.
How do they "know" that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3158 by Theodoric, posted 08-27-2022 11:58 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3165 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 1:02 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7570
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3165 of 3189 (897040)
08-28-2022 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3164 by Dredge
08-28-2022 12:47 PM


Re: Monsters Under The Bed
The same way we know little Red Riding Hood is a fable.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3164 by Dredge, posted 08-28-2022 12:47 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3166 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:32 PM Theodoric has replied

  
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