Bacterial flagellum

I have seen some explanations of how a bacterial flagellum could have evolved through selection, but they were weak. Seeing the inner workings of one was like a rude awakening. It's like writing on a wall, you just feel it was created.Here are links which consider the flagellum from different perspectives.
Pantheon | Site Locked Page not found | Faculty of Health and Medical Sciences | University of Adelaide
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/irreducible_complexity_01.html
WindowView - Science and Scripture in Harmony - A Convergence of Perspectives Reveals How Scientific Data and Biblical Texts Illustrate What Tomorrow Will BringI only wish to open a casual conversation about this, and see what people on this forum think of it.What I found to be so interesting about it is:

1. I was never taught about this one at school (probably because it would rebuke evolution to a point)
2. We as humans have took thousands of years to discover electricity, then design electric motors, but all along nature already had one, way more efficient than any of ours.

To me as a person who believes in God and creation, I find it ironic how we are created in his image, and then make things in part of the image we were created in, without even knowing it.This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 05-17-2004 05:26 PM

It's just that the way they taught me about bacteria, you would have never known that these exist inside them. It would have been nice to learn of the complexity of the flagellum even at that level of education.
But at that time especially, they had no explanation of how it would fit into the evolution model, so it wasn't taught.
You can't say that it was too complicated for us to learn, as they tried to teach us everything about the atom, down to its smallest part. But the inner workings of an atom don't really go against evolution as far as we know.
Anyway thats my opinion, I would rather discuss how it could have evolved. Because I have no idea for that. I feel it was created, just by looking at it. I am not a scientist, and would like a scientists view on it.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 05-18-2004 07:16 AM

I must apologize, for some of the words you are using, I don't fully understand thier meanings. I do spend some time reading about those words on the internet, but I won't become a scientist that way.I saw some illustrations of transmembrane proteins, but due to the vocabulary used to describe them, I don't have a full understanding of them. I do get a general idea though.
Isn't a big leap going from that, to something that rotates, and works like an electric motor?Also, if this is present in one of the most simplest forms of life, it would have appeared very early in earths history. That doesn't help explain how it evoloved, because most likely it would have take X number of years to get that way.
Did the flagellum have enough time to evolve based on what we claim to know about the earths existance?Has anyone ever tried to figure out this time frame?I only said I feel it was created, not had to be.
That is irrelevant to how it actually could have evolved.
Only it is the reason for me to think it has not evolved.Using evolution as a design process is awesome.
Or is it the other way around? haha.Quick question, I understand that the theory of evolution has been observed in the mutation of bacteria, has it ever been observed to change a species into another species?Thanks for your reply.

I went to high school 20 years ago.
Quarks were mentioned, and w,z particles. As well as quantum theory.I didn't expect the schools to tell me how it evolved, just show it to me period. It would have sparked my curiousity a long time ago.And yes, I am ignorant, that is why I wish to talk about it casually and see what comes of it. I don't need the angry non-God believer scientist attitude here.I am trying to be open minded and Christian. Can you appreciate that? Because it is a problem and I would like to know more about it, so I won't be so ignorant.What is Behe?

Not creator, designed. Not talking about God here.I think I started learning about the atom even before High school. That was 20 years ago, so yes, I guess things have changed if they aren't teaching you a general knowledge of the atom.

Whether it was a cover-up or not, is not important right now, I probably shouldn't have mentioned it.Ok, I know who Behe is, thank you.
I wasn't aware that there was 2 kinds of flagellum, that to me is interesting, as it proposes that it could have evolved.Is there anything else in nature that spins in that same mannor?
That we know of?

Yes on the atom, I believe there was a little more than that, but it was a long time ago. I think they spoke of the force which binds it together.
Either way the flagellum is to me facinating and worthy of being showed at a high school level, IMO.Please not dwell on the fact that I am upset about not learning about it ealrier. My fault for mentioning it.I never said complex either, you did.
Humans are way more complex than flagellum.Its the fact that it spins, and works like an electric motor. Is there in anything else in nature that can compare to that?Also the tail is not really connected, because it is spinning. Is there anything else in nature that has a part of itself not connected?

Thanks, I am going to try and read that, but it will take some time.

I believe it does indeed spin, at 20,000 to 30,000 rpms.
Its effecientcy is at almost 100% also, something we are not able to acheive with conventional electric motors.

Yes everything in nature uses electric pluses to send commands through the nervous systems.
But to spin a rotor is something completely different.

OH yea I forgot this one too, it does spin at 20,000-30,000 rpms.
And can stop in a quarter of a turn, then spin the other way.
So it even reverses its self, adding to the complexity.Like having a reversing curcut in an eletric speed control.

Is that the same as gyroscopic effect? I never heard it put that way, it sounds cool.Wouldn't the fact that the tail can whip around into various shapes enable it to counter act the tumbling period of motion, without reversing? Juust a thought.

Hmm, then is the flagellum using ions, or electric pulses?

Thats due to the effecientcy of the tail, not the motor.
I was only speaking of the motor.

Yes both. Its the whipping spinning action.
If it just spun, how would it stear?