Bacterial flagellum

I have seen some explanations of how a bacterial flagellum could have evolved through selection, but they were weak. Seeing the inner workings of one was like a rude awakening. It's like writing on a wall, you just feel it was created.Here are links which consider the flagellum from different perspectives.
Pantheon | Site Locked Page not found | Faculty of Health and Medical Sciences | University of Adelaide
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/irreducible_complexity_01.html
WindowView - Science and Scripture in Harmony - A Convergence of Perspectives Reveals How Scientific Data and Biblical Texts Illustrate What Tomorrow Will BringI only wish to open a casual conversation about this, and see what people on this forum think of it.What I found to be so interesting about it is:

1. I was never taught about this one at school (probably because it would rebuke evolution to a point)
2. We as humans have took thousands of years to discover electricity, then design electric motors, but all along nature already had one, way more efficient than any of ours.

To me as a person who believes in God and creation, I find it ironic how we are created in his image, and then make things in part of the image we were created in, without even knowing it.This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 05-17-2004 05:26 PM

Placed [url] and [/url] tags around the URLs. This prevents problems with the software failing to parse a URL with funny characters. Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.This message has been edited by AdminSylas, 05-17-2004 05:31 PM

I have a question. Why do you believe that the reaon you were not taught about it has anything to do with evolution ? Schools have to teach the basics - although I studied physics at school we never covered even Special Relativity - let alone General Relativity of Quantum Mechanics.One point to remember about the flagellum is that it has been around for a long time and we cannot hope to gain any significant information from the fossil record. Given that and the complexity of the system it is going to be very hard to work out it's evolution.If we are attributing ulterior motives would it not be reasonable to say that Behe intentionally chose a system where information on its history would be hard to obtain ?
If you find that objectionable then I would suggest that you display a little more charity in inferring other's motives.

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I have seen some explanations of how a bacterial flagellum could have evolved through selection, but they were weak. Seeing the inner workings of one was like a rude awakening. It's like writing on a wall, you just feel it was created.

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So, lets compare the two theories:1. The bacteria flagellum has similarities to other parts of the bacteria, namely the type III secretory proteins. Through evolution, these proteins could have given rise to the bacterial flagellum.2. It amazes me because of its complexity, therefore it had to be created.Now, which one are you saying is a weak argument? New enzymes and metabolic pathways have been created by evolutionary mechanisms, yet these same mechanisms are suddenly insuffecient to alter transmembrane proteins. Instead, it had to be an intelligent designer, who has never been observed creating complex designs in nature. You seem to be preferring unobserved mechanisms over observed mechanisms, and then claim that you are choosing the most logical conclusion. You may want to rethink that.

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I was never taught about this one at school (probably because it would rebuke evolution to a point)

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You probably weren't taught many things in school (guessing high school). Did they teach you about the similarities between the type III secretory pathway and the bacterial flagellum? Did they teach you about HERV's, pseudogenes, catalytic RNA, etc.? Unfortunately, high school science classes have a large amount material to cover in a short amount of time. For instance, most of my work deals with protein chemistry, a topic probably only covered in half a day in a high school biology class.

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We as humans have took thousands of years to discover electricity, then design electric motors, but all along nature already had one, way more efficient than any of ours.

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And engineers are starting to use the mechanisms of evolution (random mutation and selection) to create circuits that are more effecient and better designed than what humans make. For instance, from here: In fact, engineers are still trying to figure out how some of the designs work. Suffice it to say, evolution is able to create elaborate designs that are better than what even humans can create. Evolution is actually MORE intelligent than any human designer. Therefore, if we see something that baffles us (like the circuits above) then it is more likely that it is a consequence of evolutionary mechanisms. You have fallen into the trap of personal incredulity, basing your conclusions on what you subjectively judge as impossible. Instead, you should step back and see what evolution is actually capable of, as is hinted at by the genetic algorithms example above. Mutation and selection are a powerful combo not to be taken lightly.

It's just that the way they taught me about bacteria, you would have never known that these exist inside them. It would have been nice to learn of the complexity of the flagellum even at that level of education.
But at that time especially, they had no explanation of how it would fit into the evolution model, so it wasn't taught.
You can't say that it was too complicated for us to learn, as they tried to teach us everything about the atom, down to its smallest part. But the inner workings of an atom don't really go against evolution as far as we know.
Anyway thats my opinion, I would rather discuss how it could have evolved. Because I have no idea for that. I feel it was created, just by looking at it. I am not a scientist, and would like a scientists view on it.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 05-18-2004 07:16 AM

What do you mean that they taught you about the "inner workings of the atom" ? Did they teach you the probability density functions describing the position of electrons ? How much did they teach you about Quarks ? Or the w and z particles ?Relativity doesn't go against evolution - but you weren't taught that, were you ?And why should our not knowing how a particular system evolved - when there is virtually no direct evidence (all we have is modern organisms greatly removed from the organisms who evolved flagella) - be a serious problem for the truth of evolution anyway ?Now I do suspect that Behe may have deliberately chosen to look at systems where the available evidence was very limited. After all if you are making an argument from ignorance then you want to look at systems we don't know too much about. But I won't say that that is what he did - even though I've got a better case than you have - because that case still isn't good enough.This paper - currently unpublished - proposes an explanation of how a flagellum could have evolved
Evolution in (Brownian) space: a model for the origin of the bacterial flagellumDo you think that you could have handled that in school ?

I must apologize, for some of the words you are using, I don't fully understand thier meanings. I do spend some time reading about those words on the internet, but I won't become a scientist that way.I saw some illustrations of transmembrane proteins, but due to the vocabulary used to describe them, I don't have a full understanding of them. I do get a general idea though.
Isn't a big leap going from that, to something that rotates, and works like an electric motor?Also, if this is present in one of the most simplest forms of life, it would have appeared very early in earths history. That doesn't help explain how it evoloved, because most likely it would have take X number of years to get that way.
Did the flagellum have enough time to evolve based on what we claim to know about the earths existance?Has anyone ever tried to figure out this time frame?I only said I feel it was created, not had to be.
That is irrelevant to how it actually could have evolved.
Only it is the reason for me to think it has not evolved.Using evolution as a design process is awesome.
Or is it the other way around? haha.Quick question, I understand that the theory of evolution has been observed in the mutation of bacteria, has it ever been observed to change a species into another species?Thanks for your reply.

Please do Explain how Complex = Creator?
All complexity proves about its is that it is complex... I never hear problems from college students... and it is taught!
A lot of things aren't covered in High School biology. you learned all about the Atom in High School!??!?
MAN! Things changed in just a few years! I am only 24(almost 25) so High School wasn't to long ago...This message has been edited by DC85, 05-18-2004 09:02 AM

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My site The Atheist BibleMy New Debate Fourms!

I went to high school 20 years ago.
Quarks were mentioned, and w,z particles. As well as quantum theory.I didn't expect the schools to tell me how it evolved, just show it to me period. It would have sparked my curiousity a long time ago.And yes, I am ignorant, that is why I wish to talk about it casually and see what comes of it. I don't need the angry non-God believer scientist attitude here.I am trying to be open minded and Christian. Can you appreciate that? Because it is a problem and I would like to know more about it, so I won't be so ignorant.What is Behe?

Not creator, designed. Not talking about God here.I think I started learning about the atom even before High school. That was 20 years ago, so yes, I guess things have changed if they aren't teaching you a general knowledge of the atom.

There are plenty of systems you could choose to argue about - the flagellum isn't a special problem.THere are many things that could have bene mentioned in your biology lessosn but weren't. You still haven't offered any reason to think that there was any ulterior motive to not discussing the flagellum (or rather ONE sort of flagellum - there are at least two distinct types, with many variations). If you are trying to be open minded then I seriously suggest that you look at the prejudice and hostility underlying your idea that there is any sort of "cover-up" going on.And if you don't know who Behe is - he's the onne who started the whole thing of using the flagellum as an argument against evolution. But I'm still waiting for someone to explain why it should be easy to work out complex histories without some direct evidence. I would think that someone trying to be open-minded would consider that side of things, too.

I'm guessing your atom knowledge is something like this:The nucleus is made of positively charged protons and neutrally charged neutrons, around which electrons orbit. You were probably also taught that the orbit in shells (2, 8, 8, 2) and shown diagrams that look a lot like diagrams of the solar system?Yes? So, then, explain how complex = 'designed'?

How can something be designed without some kind of creator? What are you trying to say? yes you learned about it but not everything about it

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My site The Atheist BibleMy New Debate Fourms!

I think I see incipiant topic drift here.This thread will be useful when the topic somes up for the 1,000 time here let's keep it tidy shall we?I suggest that we work through the referenced paper
http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.htmlfor RiverRat since he doesn't understand what it is saying. As noted here:

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I saw some illustrations of transmembrane proteins, but due to the vocabulary used to describe them, I don't have a full understanding of them. I do get a general idea though.
Isn't a big leap going from that, to something that rotates, and works like an electric motor?

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Whether it was a cover-up or not, is not important right now, I probably shouldn't have mentioned it.Ok, I know who Behe is, thank you.
I wasn't aware that there was 2 kinds of flagellum, that to me is interesting, as it proposes that it could have evolved.Is there anything else in nature that spins in that same mannor?
That we know of?