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Author Topic:   Bacterial flagellum
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 59 (108883)
05-17-2004 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
05-10-2004 1:41 AM


quote:
I have seen some explanations of how a bacterial flagellum could have evolved through selection, but they were weak. Seeing the inner workings of one was like a rude awakening. It's like writing on a wall, you just feel it was created.
So, lets compare the two theories:
1. The bacteria flagellum has similarities to other parts of the bacteria, namely the type III secretory proteins. Through evolution, these proteins could have given rise to the bacterial flagellum.
2. It amazes me because of its complexity, therefore it had to be created.
Now, which one are you saying is a weak argument? New enzymes and metabolic pathways have been created by evolutionary mechanisms, yet these same mechanisms are suddenly insuffecient to alter transmembrane proteins. Instead, it had to be an intelligent designer, who has never been observed creating complex designs in nature. You seem to be preferring unobserved mechanisms over observed mechanisms, and then claim that you are choosing the most logical conclusion. You may want to rethink that.
quote:
I was never taught about this one at school (probably because it would rebuke evolution to a point)
You probably weren't taught many things in school (guessing high school). Did they teach you about the similarities between the type III secretory pathway and the bacterial flagellum? Did they teach you about HERV's, pseudogenes, catalytic RNA, etc.? Unfortunately, high school science classes have a large amount material to cover in a short amount of time. For instance, most of my work deals with protein chemistry, a topic probably only covered in half a day in a high school biology class.
quote:
We as humans have took thousands of years to discover electricity, then design electric motors, but all along nature already had one, way more efficient than any of ours.
And engineers are starting to use the mechanisms of evolution (random mutation and selection) to create circuits that are more effecient and better designed than what humans make. For instance, from here:
This simple [genetic] algorithm has been applied to a wide range of problems from parameter fitting in economic models to the design of aircraft wings. One of the most striking examples of the power of blind variation and selection is Adrian Thompson's tone discriminator. By exploiting the subtle physics of a reconfigurable chip (a Field Programmable Gate Array) an evolved design distinguished between two spoken words using only 100 gates: something unthinkable using conventional design.
In fact, engineers are still trying to figure out how some of the designs work. Suffice it to say, evolution is able to create elaborate designs that are better than what even humans can create. Evolution is actually MORE intelligent than any human designer. Therefore, if we see something that baffles us (like the circuits above) then it is more likely that it is a consequence of evolutionary mechanisms. You have fallen into the trap of personal incredulity, basing your conclusions on what you subjectively judge as impossible. Instead, you should step back and see what evolution is actually capable of, as is hinted at by the genetic algorithms example above. Mutation and selection are a powerful combo not to be taken lightly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 05-10-2004 1:41 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by riVeRraT, posted 05-18-2004 9:51 AM Loudmouth has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 59 (109685)
05-21-2004 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
05-21-2004 8:10 AM


quote:
Hmm, then is the flagellum using ions, or electric pulses?
Ions. Electricity is the movement of electrons. The flagella used charged, whole atoms instead of single electrons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 05-21-2004 8:10 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
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