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Author Topic:   Fossil Sorting in the Great Flood Part 2
JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 32 of 411 (118878)
06-25-2004 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by simple
06-25-2004 8:46 PM


Re: slip slidin away
How much of the world have we dug up? .0000000975234133 of 1%? I think a lot of surprises may await!
OK, we'll deal with them if and when they show up. Until then, deal with the evidence that we have.
Bunnies and dinos. Hmm, have we looked in the dino bellies as well?
Irrelevant.
What if say, earth were covered with a lot more water than they think? I don't know, say an extra mile high, or two brought in from deep space? Could this cool things down?
It would heat things up even more, releasing the potential energy difference between that water in outer space and that water at the surface of the Earth (even if the water were at absolute zero when in outer space).
What if the sun was say obstructed a lot to cool things?
It would make no difference, since the Sun is not the source of he heat and radiational cooling is to slow.
What if there were a lot more water under the continent than imagined?
Then it would be terrifically hot and would heat things up even more when brought to the surface.
What if the fountains of the deep had shot out air and water, and the plates floated like an air hockey table for a short while?
Then stopping them would release incredible amounts of energy and ... you guessed it ... heat everything up and kill all life. Also, we would see incrediblly large deposits of crumbled rock where they crashed into each other and when they "set down". No such deposits anywhere, hypothesis refuted.
In other words, how seriously did we look at other Godly scenarios?
Not too seriously, since science isn't interested in complicated made-up stories with no explanatory power, for which there is no evidence, and which do not explain the evidence any better than the simpler theories (i.e. Occam's razor).
However, an incredible number of different scenarios that are compatible with th elaw of physics and chemistry have been considered, and every one of them doesn't work. None of them are even close to working.
You want to believe it's all a series of miracles, OK, Don't claim that it's science, don't ask that ir be taught as sicence, go discuss it in a fath forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by simple, posted 06-25-2004 8:46 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by simple, posted 06-26-2004 12:44 AM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 40 of 411 (118994)
06-26-2004 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by simple
06-26-2004 12:44 AM


Re: slip slidin away
Glad you banged the gavel on that one, your honor!
You still haven't answered the question.
So then if freezing water was brought in from space to cover the world, over 40 days, then this is going to heat things up so much as to destroy life?
Yes. You are presuming to discuss this stuff without even a knowledge of junior-high science?
Really, how does that work? What is potential energy difference?
Potential energy is energy that is due to being at a certain position in a gravitational field. It can be measured relative to any position. Let's say we decide to measure relative to the Earth's surface (pretty common). Hold a 2 pound ball 6 feet off the ground; its potential energy is the weight times the height (2 lbf) * (6 ft) = 12 ft-lbf = 16.3 joules. Drop the ball onto the ground. Its potential energy is now (2 lbf) * (0 ft) = 0 ft-lbf = 0 joules. Whenever anything moves vertically in a gravitational field, there is a change in potential energy.
Energy is not created or destroyed. The potential enrgy lost by dropping the ball didn't disappear; it "turned into" heat and warmed up the ball. In most day-to-day cases like this, it's pretty hard to measure the change in temperature, but it can and has been done.
The calculation is a little more complex when the object (such as your hypothesized water) starts so far away that the gravitational force changes during the movement, but that calculation also has been done. We know how much energy it takes to warm up and/or melt water, so we can calculate the change in temperature of the water. That also has been done, and the answer is in the many hundreds of degrees Fahrenheit.
And we haven't even considered the kinetic energy due to difference in velocity between the water is space and the Earth's surface, which makes it even worse!
I notice you reference Brown below. He discusses other problems and shows a sample calculation or two at In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - Arguments for a Canopy—and Brief Responses.
What if there were a lot more water under the continent than imagined?
"Then it would be terrifically hot and would heat things up even more when brought to the surface."
Only if the theories about the earth's center etc were accurate.
Measurements, not theories. The theories have to do with why it's as hot as it is down there.
Now Walt Brown's theory of this has it that the continents were lifted up, and slid away from each other near the mid atlantic ridge, and glided to their present position, where mountain ranges were pushed up in the process, and great heat was released, such as in the coastal mountains, where much of the sediment was mixed with magma that bubbled and spewed through volcanoes etc. The continents were said to have sat on some of the subteranean water remaining to reduce the friction, and I believe that the current settling in process is what he says are responsible for earthquakes, especially around the pacific.
{emphasis added}
Yup, Brown's a pip. He does the calculations for the ice canopy and then doesn't do them for his "model"; because, as I said, the calculations show that the heat released would have cooked everything to a fare-the-well. Yup, that's what he says is responsible for earthjquakes ... but his ideas, including that one, are contradicted by the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by simple, posted 06-26-2004 12:44 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by simple, posted 06-26-2004 2:47 PM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 41 of 411 (118998)
06-26-2004 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by simple
06-26-2004 5:58 AM


Re: edict to be considered
Please list the exceptions.
What for I don't think you would suggest here that there are none.
Becasue you have claimed that there are exceptions. We know that you have no evidence and are just making it up as you go along, from an exceptionally poor knowledge of the subject, but we're just trying to get you to admit that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by simple, posted 06-26-2004 5:58 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by simple, posted 06-26-2004 2:54 PM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 47 of 411 (119054)
06-26-2004 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by simple
06-26-2004 2:54 PM


Re: Ned's edict thrown out
Out of place" fossils are the rule
and not the exception throughout the fossil record. The page you requested cannot be found!
Linking to a page full of unsupported assertions is worse than your previous habit of unsupported assertions.
I note that the author of that page has no scientific credentials or experience.
remains of Homo erectus that lived 1.6 to .4 million years ago--supposedly an evolutionary ancestor of modern man - have been found in Australia that have been dated to only a few hundred to a few thousand years ago. Although according to the evolutionary timetable the species is said to have died out several hundred thousand years ago, the remains of at least 62 individuals have been dated as less than 12,000 years old Search | United Church of God
Lubenow's pretty ignorant; he thinks that species must succeed each other with no overlap, and if Home Erectus survived until relatively recently that means that Homo Erectus cannot be ancestral to our species. Hogwash, of course; ancestral species can, and often do, survive to be contemporaneous with descendant species. See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/lubenow_cg.html for more discussionof Lubenow.
But the Kow Swamp fossils are not Home Erectus. See Creationist Arguments: Anomalous Fossils and Kow Swamp: is it Homo erectus?.
Fossils or birds and mammals are found only at the higher elevations because they live at higher elevations and also because they are more mobile and could escape burial longer. Acts and Facts Magazine | The Institute for Creation Research
Good old Henry and his fantasies! That's why we brought up grass. Does grass live only at high elevations? Did grass run faster than dinosaurs? Where do rabbits live?
I'll just respond to one of your "Gish Gallop" spray of unsupported claims:
In the Grand Canyon, in Venezuela, in Kashmir, and in Guyana, spores of ferns and pollen from flowering plants are found in Cambrian rocksrocks supposedly deposited before flowering plants evolved. Pollen has also been found in Precambrian rocksrocks deposited before life supposedly evolved
References, please? The Grand Canyon claim of Burdick (who was too sloppy and dishonest for even most creationists to stnad) was contamination; see Geoscience Research Institute | I think we need more research on that... and Re: How many creationist geologists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by simple, posted 06-26-2004 2:54 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by simple, posted 06-27-2004 12:09 AM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 64 of 411 (119213)
06-27-2004 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by simple
06-26-2004 2:47 PM


Re: slip slidin away
Who said God would slam the water on to the planet? Who said there would have been much if any of a temperature difference? (He could cool or heat it as needed, with cosmic forces He controled.What if forces were at work that cahanged the earth's gravitational field? (even briefly, you know the magnetic field can be reversed and affected) So it is not a case of "dropping the ball, but more one of executing a beautiful syncronised feather landing. In a nutshell, you assume God was not in the picture actively, and omit potential forces that are not now in play, and rest utterly on theories such as tectonics, that omit the flood as well.
As has been said many times before:
1. If you want to invoke miracles, admit that you aren't talking about science, stop discussing this in a science forum and go discuss it in a faith based forum.
2. Science does not consider hypotheses for which there is no evidence, which have no explanatory power, and which are more complex than hypotheses which adequately explain the existing evidence.
Measurements of how it is, not was or will be.
Come up with somne evidence that indicates it was or will be different. Until then, give it up.
Yes so you say. But are not the 'calculations based on what we don't really fully know about the earth's guts, except in theory?
No. They are based on well-established properties of materials, physics, and measurements.
Does not the 'calculations' ignore any potential flood time effects that could drastically change the formula?
Yes, becase we always ignore hypotheses for which there is no evidence, which have no explanatory power, and which are more complex than hypotheses which adequately explain the existing evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by simple, posted 06-26-2004 2:47 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by simple, posted 06-27-2004 10:13 PM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 65 of 411 (119214)
06-27-2004 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by simple
06-27-2004 12:09 AM


Grass
Does grass live only at high elevations? Did grass run faster than dinosaurs? Where do rabbits live?
Speaking of grass, is it a possibility at all, that grass pre flood did not use pollen as a reproduction method?
Science does not consider hypotheses for which there is no evidence, which have no explanatory power, and which are more complex than hypotheses which adequately explain the existing evidence.
The post here was to use creation science sources to show there is doubt that there are no exceptions to the fossil record
That's what you've tried to change it to. The original "post" was fro you to explain the order of the fossil record and why grass pollen is found only in the very top portion. Answer the questiions: Does grass live only at high elevations? Did grass run faster than dinosaurs? Where do rabbits live?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by simple, posted 06-27-2004 12:09 AM simple has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 66 of 411 (119215)
06-27-2004 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by simple
06-27-2004 1:37 AM


Re: ribbing granny
Then you will have to explain to us why we find marine mammals with marine fish and shellfish, etc. in the same environment today but not in the past...
Do you find many fossilized?
Yes. Answer the question. Why would we find marine mammals with marine fish and shellfish, etc. in the same environment today but not in the past?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by simple, posted 06-27-2004 1:37 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by simple, posted 06-27-2004 10:22 PM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 100 of 411 (119677)
06-28-2004 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by simple
06-27-2004 10:13 PM


Re: slip slidin away
As I say now, and may say again, if you try to omit miracles from everything, you will limit your understanding of science! Miracles are very scientific.
Sorry, science investigates the natural. Miracles are supernatural an outside the purview of science (althugh science can be used to investigate if purported miracles are actually supernatural). Miracles may occur. Science is not the only way of investigating the world. But mirarcles ain't science.
Prove that things will always be the same and always will, or give up and surrender unconditionally now please.
I've never claimed that that things will always be the same and always will, nor do I assume that. When we have evidence (which we do) that things have been the same; and, when we have good reason to believe (whch we do) that they will continue to be the same; then we tentatively accept that things are and will be the same until we find evidence that indicates otherwise. So far, there's lots of evidence that indicates no changes in the fundamental ways the universe works and no evidence that indicates otherwise.
You haven't come up with any evidence. Science is based on evidence, not your wishful thinking.
Godless evo miracles are not adequate for all, and trying to claim a monopoly on science for your religion is no longer acceptable.
I find it sad that you've totally abandoned your feeble attempts at dicscussion and have gone into full-loonie rant mode.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by simple, posted 06-27-2004 10:13 PM simple has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 101 of 411 (119682)
06-28-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by simple
06-27-2004 10:22 PM


Re: ribbing granny
Do you find many fossilized marine mammals with shellfish and together with fish that are positively from very very recently?
Yes.
I somehow think the answer will be very few if any, ...
Wrong.
... there may be some doubt about their age?
Nope.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by simple, posted 06-27-2004 10:22 PM simple has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 102 of 411 (119686)
06-28-2004 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Robert Byers
06-28-2004 4:14 PM


There are no sequences. Just local area fossilization.
The sequences seen are in fact interpretations by evolutionists based on thier rejection of a sudden general crushing fossilization event.
ROTFL!
Look at the literally millions of foraminifera fossils, found world-wide in axactly the same order of gradual changes, and used by oil companies to locate oil deposits. From Microfossil Stratigraphy Presents Problems for the Flood:
and tell me that's not a sequence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Robert Byers, posted 06-28-2004 4:14 PM Robert Byers has not replied

Replies to this message:
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