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Author Topic:   Fossil Sorting in the Great Flood Part 2
MarkAustin
Member (Idle past 3844 days)
Posts: 122
From: London., UK
Joined: 05-23-2003


Message 376 of 411 (133531)
08-13-2004 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Robert Byers
08-07-2004 3:27 PM


Re: Drift rates
quote:
Again as has been said before creationists do not accept that there is any sorting. This is an interpretation of fossils in the field.
tHE "SORTING" was just another side of a hill of similiar creatures.
All fossils are a photagraph of a momment in a day. The day they were fossilized. Not fossilization event after fossization event after fossilization event over millions of years.
It is not demonstrated to be so. And its unreasonable and unnessesary.
Robert,
So, all the fossils were created more or less instantly by these hydraulic effects, and fossilised in their positions on the hills.
So, answer me this:
What were the willows trees - consistently at the top end of the geologicial record, but consistently found in low lying country near water - doing at the top of the hill? Were they on holiday?
Why did the proto-mammals sort themselves out in line up the hill by jaw design?
Why are all the dinosaurs sorted by families? Were they having their annual family get-together?
How does this explain the strict sorting of marine fossils.
And, finally:
Why do we find the same patterns in every part of the world?

For Whigs admit no force but argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Robert Byers, posted 08-07-2004 3:27 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Robert Byers, posted 08-16-2004 5:56 PM MarkAustin has replied

MarkAustin
Member (Idle past 3844 days)
Posts: 122
From: London., UK
Joined: 05-23-2003


Message 386 of 411 (134598)
08-17-2004 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Robert Byers
08-16-2004 5:56 PM


Re: Drift rates
quote:
Geography was different back then and willow trees etc would be fossilized where thet grew.
So, pre-flood, all the wet river valleys with willow trees were at the top of the mountains, and the drier land that conifers prefer at the bottom. Did the rivers flow uphill then?
quote:
These proto-mammals didn't sort by jaw. That is just an interpretation of fossil assemblage.
Loudmouth has answered that one perfectly. I will just add that regardless of your opinion on timescales a fossil found in a lower strata must have been buried earlier than one in a higher strata. Relative deposition times are rarely in doubt. Even if not all strata are found in the same place correllation will give an order.
An example if (reading from the top) you find strata ABC in one place and CDE in another, it's certain the relative order is ABCDE.
quote:
Dinosaur families...
Why do you never find Ceratopsians (horned dinosaurs) of the Cretaceous period with the Sauropods of the Jurassic.
quote:
...marine fossils fits fine with what I said.
Neatly sorted in developmental stages. If they all lived together, whay aren't they all fossilised together.

For Whigs admit no force but argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Robert Byers, posted 08-16-2004 5:56 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Robert Byers, posted 08-17-2004 4:43 PM MarkAustin has replied

MarkAustin
Member (Idle past 3844 days)
Posts: 122
From: London., UK
Joined: 05-23-2003


Message 389 of 411 (134750)
08-17-2004 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Robert Byers
08-17-2004 4:43 PM


Re: Drift rates
quote:
Many of your line of questions has been brought up and dealt with before.
Then do so. So far all I've seen is handwaving and evasion.
quote:
It is creationists belief that almost all geologic layers were laid down at once.
Then, once again:
Why aren't all the fosssils mixed?
Why are they sorted in an evolutionary manner? Please note that this does not make any assumptions about timescales or evolutionary mechanisms.
It is a simple observation. A relative timescale for virtually all, if not all strata observed has been constructed, so we can tell in what order they were laid down regardless of whether this was done in one year of a global flood or over 4.5billion years.
Another simple observation. As we look at ever older strata, we see older organisms fossilised; we see modern species vanishing and precursor species appearing; we see whole orders vanishing.
Loudmouth's chart of the development of the mammalian jaw is a classic example.
quote:
We don't accept the separation that is now made in geology and so the premise behind yours points negates its strength.
What separation?
quote:
To you British folk a little behind North America...
Far ahead rather, I would have said.
quote:
...on the great debate creationists today are making the strong point that what one sees in the field is where it is for exactlly the reason it is.
This is tautological. Unless of course you are falling back on Goddidit.
quote:
IT was place there by events all at once.
And sorted to give the appearance of evolution. You are getting very close to the "God the liar" argument, or to give it it's more technical name the Omphalos argument.
quote:
Indeed the old idea introduced by a British dude in geology that the present is the evidence of the past , I forgot his name,called uniformatism is falling to pieces by the accepted ideas of plate teutonics, glacial action, and the new meltwater outbursts sweeping geology today.
Sir Charles Lyell, who devloped and was instrumental in the general acceptance of the concept of Uniformatism first proposed by James Hutton.
Remember that the theory he was arguing against was that there had been a series of world wide catastrophic events that destroyed all or virtually all life, after which God recreated life multiple times. The battle for a single creation event and the single catastrophic flood of Noah had been abandoned by then.
As with anyy such debate he over-egged the pudding, and there is a much greater acceptance of essentially local catastrophic events, but Catastrophism is dead in modern geology.
quote:
I would also add that Darwin's biological idea was based on the premise of a uniformatarian geology idea. Here comes the crash.
Only in the sense that his theory removed the last need for catastophic clearance by providing a mechanism for gradual change in life forms, and in that Lyell's uniformatism in geolgy gave Darwin the idea for uniformatism in the development of life.
He too, again, over-egged the pudding in stressing gradualism in Natural Selection. In some writings he accepts pauses and spurts in the rate of evolution, but, again, was arguing against saltation - the sudden emergance of wholly new species.

For Whigs admit no force but argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Robert Byers, posted 08-17-2004 4:43 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Robert Byers, posted 08-21-2004 2:46 PM MarkAustin has replied

MarkAustin
Member (Idle past 3844 days)
Posts: 122
From: London., UK
Joined: 05-23-2003


Message 394 of 411 (136762)
08-25-2004 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Robert Byers
08-21-2004 2:46 PM


Re: Drift rates
quote:
Why are the fossils not mixed you asked. Dealt with this before and happy too again for you however.
The fossils that are interpretated as to be sorted are just communities frozen in place. creationists see the fossilization event itself as a great pressure event that was extensive and so would freeze in place creatures and also even thier communities. we don't see the choas of a flood as being the norm but the pressure created.
The interpretation of older strata having older fossils is explained as follows. The "older" rock is just rock that was impacted by the events differently because of its original location. The kinds of fossils found were just the kind in the area. They aren't more primitive just suibale to thier area that perhaps was more impoverished.
The separation I referred too was what you call "layers".
You still haven't answered my question. Regardless of how long it took to lay down the strata layers, it is relatively easy to work out the order in which they were laid down - in other words a relative timescale: this does not in any way depend upon whether it was done in one flood year or 4.5billion years of geologic time.
Once this relative order is established, why is it that the fossils found within the layers are sorted: for the same environments we see different but related species, we see sequences of evolution e.g. the development of the jaw in the proto-mammals: all neatly sorted by the relative order.
Easily explicable from an evolutionary point of view. Over to you.
quote:
Catastropism is rejected today you say!?
This is not so. In fact it is taking over. For example in Canada the old idea of the land having been shaped by slow glacial action is being replaced, though not conquored yet, by the land having been shaped by sudden meltwater outburst so great as to defy imagination. (Post flood event by the way)
Apart from the last sentence, in which you assume your conclusion, do you not see how damaging to your case these axample of local catastrophes are.
We can see the results of the collapse of ice dams at the end of the ice age, the results of tidal waves caused by geological events: all clearly defined local events.
But of a global, all-encompassing, world covering flood, not a trace.

For Whigs admit no force but argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Robert Byers, posted 08-21-2004 2:46 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Robert Byers, posted 08-27-2004 2:50 PM MarkAustin has not replied

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