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Author Topic:   Points on abortion and the crutch of supporters
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 344 of 440 (140751)
09-07-2004 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by coffee_addict
09-07-2004 10:04 AM


quote:
My ethics professor last year told us that he believed human life begins at the point of viability. I agree with him wholeheartedly.
The problem with this position is that viability is pretty vague. A fetus or newborn baby cannot survive outside the womb without a lot of help. So how do we define viable? Possibly, "Able to survive outside the womb with help." Then again, we can keep severely premature babies alive with respirators, incubators, etc. Are these viable human beings then?
Then there's the problem that viability will keep getting pushed back further and further as technology increases. So the concept of human life will be a function of technology.
I prefer the point when the fetus begins to show adult brain wave patterns, since it is our mind that makes us human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by coffee_addict, posted 09-07-2004 10:04 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by ThingsChange, posted 09-07-2004 7:44 PM JustinC has not replied
 Message 360 by coffee_addict, posted 09-07-2004 7:45 PM JustinC has replied

JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 370 of 440 (140826)
09-07-2004 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by coffee_addict
09-07-2004 7:45 PM


quote:
Yes, the point of viability is the point where an organism is able to survive with a lot of help. This is why I do not approve of some form of late term abortion where the doctor is required to actively kill the fetus.
Fifty years ago, technology could not keep a 7 month old fetus alive, so it would be all right to abort it since it was not human life. In 2004, a 7 month old fetus can be kept alive, it is therefore immoral to abort it. Possibly one day in the future, artificial wombs will be developed that can bring a fetus to term from a much earlier point.
Does everyone of these babies' lives begin at a different point in gestation? In the future, should abortion be illegal if it is viable at 2 months?
What about people from areas where they do not have access to advanced medical technology? Does the fetus's life begin later than a fetus born in a technologically advanced society?
This isn't necessarily a criticism, I'm just trying to flush out the viability concept.
quote:
If you're going to want to abort, by all means do so as long as you allow the doctors to do their job and try to help the child as much as possible
One of the big questions in the abortion debate is whether we can applly the term child, a human life, to a fetus. If we cannot, then why would we let the doctor bring to term a fetus that the mother, for whatever reason, wishes to abort?
quote:
This is even more vague than the point of viability.
Possibly, but I think it touches on the issue of what we value as humans. It's not cardiopulmonary activity, since no one would be comforted if their loved one retained CP activity if they were brain dead; we value human thought. This is why CP activity isn't used as an indicator of death anymore, it is used to indicate that the brain has ceased functioning and therefor the person has died. In the future, if we can keep the brain alive without CP activity, I'm sure we'd consider the person to be alive. The cessation of brain wave ativity indicates a person has died, so why shouldn't the start of human brain wave activity indicate the start of life?
The vagueness comes in interpreting EEG's of fetuses as indicating human thinking. Even fetuses with just a brainstem show brain wave activity, since an EEG is just an indicator of the firing of neurons. I think it's been pretty well established, though, that a large part of what makes us human is our cerebral cortex. So, for now, I'd be fine with outlawing abortion for any nonmedical reason after the point in which the cerebral cortex has fully developed and is showing brain wave patterns similar to that of adults on an EEG.
This message has been edited by JustinCy, 09-07-2004 08:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by coffee_addict, posted 09-07-2004 7:45 PM coffee_addict has not replied

JustinC
Member (Idle past 4874 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 388 of 440 (141578)
09-11-2004 2:40 PM


Legal Death/Actual Death
A year or so ago I wrote a paper in Biomedical Ethics regarding which criteria should be used for death. One problem with my criteria, if trying to apply it to the abortion debate, is that it argues that death means 'the cessation of x,' rather than 'lack of x.' I think the latter can be substituted for the former, though, with minimal repercussions. Here's my paper (short) for those interested.
By what standard should a human be considered dead?
In the past, the way to tell whether a person was dead was to check if their heart was beating and to see if their lungs were breathing. Due to the advent of modern technology this standard for determination falls short of our common sense notion of whether a person is dead or not. A human nowadays can be kept breathing with an iron lung, have normal heart functioning, yet have absolute brain damage to their cerebrum, i.e. they are in a vegetative state and will never be conscious again. Is this human alive by the sense that we commonly use the word, and should they have the same right to life as every other living human?
I agree very much with Martin Benjamin on this issue. When we talk about death, we are referring to cessation of a certain kind, e.g. death of disco music, death of tree, death of a dog, etc. In all of these situations, some kind ceases to be that kind and hence it is dead. Now there are two kinds that have been put forward to account for what we mean when we say, someone has died. The first is the organism, and the second is the person. Note that death can be applied to both these kinds, and neither of the applications are inherently wrong; it is just that one of these doesn’t correspond to our common sense notion of death. The organismic view of death describes death as ‘the ceasing to exist of a functioning organism, i.e. when the cardiopulminaryneurological (CPN) processes stop functioning. The person view describes death as ‘the ceasing to exist of person--the conscious, thinking being.
Now the problem with the organismic view of death is that a human can lose all ability to think and be conscious yet be considered alive and to have rights of any other human. The absurdity of this can be summed up in two thought scenarios:
1.) If someone hurts one of your family members or friends to the extent that they will never be conscious again, would you feel relieved that they still have CPN functioning?
2.) If a doctor tells you that you are either going to lose all CPN functioning if you do not treat a disease, or you are going to lose all conscious ability and be a vegetable for the rest of your life if you do get treated, would you feel comforted by being treated since you will still have CPN functioning?
It seems that the large majority of people would neither feel relieved or comforted by any of the scenarios. When someone thinks about the tragedy of death, they are not merely thinking about CPN functioning. They are referring to the loss of consciousness, the loss of the ability to plan for the future, to communicate, to laugh, to think, etc. This is what we ultimately mean when we speak of the death of a human—i.e. we refer to the death of a person.
I think it must be recognized that just because we have always checked for a heart beat or for respiration to see if a human was dead, what we were ultimately checking was to see if the person was dead, not just the organism. Before modern medicine, loss of CPN always referred to the death of a person. So even though nowadays we may be able to keep CPN functioning without the human being conscious, that does not mean they are ‘alive’ by any common sense standard for which we use the word. Their personhood is dead, and that is the ‘kind’ which really matters to humans.

Replies to this message:
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