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Author Topic:   Neither a theist nor an atheist
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4 of 118 (732501)
07-07-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by granpa
07-07-2014 10:52 AM


granpa writes:
As a follower of the middle path I consider myself to be neither a theist nor an atheist.
Depends on how you define "atheist". Literally, it means "not theist", so there is no middle ground.
granpa writes:
No I'm not agnostic either. I'm not undecided. I have decided and I choose neither.
Agnostic doesn't mean you're undecided; it means you don't know. Strictly speaking nobody knows so everybody is agnostic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by granpa, posted 07-07-2014 10:52 AM granpa has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by granpa, posted 07-07-2014 1:17 PM ringo has replied
 Message 11 by NoNukes, posted 07-07-2014 4:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 6 of 118 (732503)
07-07-2014 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by granpa
07-07-2014 1:17 PM


granpa writes:
first you have to define God
So you're an ignostic.

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 Message 5 by granpa, posted 07-07-2014 1:17 PM granpa has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 118 (732549)
07-08-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by NoNukes
07-07-2014 4:39 PM


NoNukes writes:
An agnostic is someone who believes that the answer to whether or not God exists is not answerable given the information at hand. An agnostic is not the proper term for everyone who has some level of uncertainty about the question.
It's interesting that you say an agnostic "believes". What you say is true of a professing agnostic. My point is that neither Faith nor marc9000 nor Phat actually knows what they profess to believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NoNukes, posted 07-07-2014 4:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2014 9:42 PM ringo has replied
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 07-08-2014 11:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 118 (732654)
07-09-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by NoNukes
07-08-2014 9:42 PM


NoNukes writes:
And my point is that their belief alone, whether well supported or unfounded, is enough to disqualify them as agnostic.
And I make a distinction between professed belief and "real" belief, as you may recall from other threads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2014 9:42 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 50 of 118 (732655)
07-09-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
07-08-2014 11:25 PM


Re: Gnostic Theists Dont Exist?
Phat writes:
Would you go so far as to say that there are no gnostic theists?
I'd go so far as to say there are people who think they're gnostic theists but I don't believe them.
Phat writes:
If they plausibly exist, how does their belief differ from mine?
We can "see" what beliefs people profess and we can see how they "act out" their actual beliefs. There likely are people who profess similarly to you and people who act similarly to you. They are not necessarily the same people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 07-08-2014 11:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 118 (732656)
07-09-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by hooah212002
07-08-2014 10:20 PM


I'd replace the cross in that diagram with a big gray square.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 56 of 118 (732724)
07-10-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by hooah212002
07-09-2014 12:38 PM


hooah212002 writes:
I am not sure I really follow or necessarily agree with Ringo, but I don't quite know what he is saying to have an opinion. He seems to me to be saying that he knows what other people know or don't know and is making the distinction for them.
I don't claim to know what other people know. I just don't believe they know what they think they know. I don't believe in theists in the same way I don't believe in gods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by hooah212002, posted 07-09-2014 12:38 PM hooah212002 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 07-10-2014 1:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 59 of 118 (732734)
07-10-2014 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by granpa
07-10-2014 1:11 PM


Re: I'm confused...
granpa writes:
Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?
No.
Have I stopped taking heroin? No.
Have I stopped ruling the universe? No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by granpa, posted 07-10-2014 1:11 PM granpa has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 118 (732736)
07-10-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by NoNukes
07-10-2014 1:21 PM


NoNukes writes:
ringo writes:
I just don't believe they know what they think they know.
That would make you either agnostic or atheist rather than them.
I'm agnostic about other people's agnosticism and/or atheism.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 118 (732916)
07-12-2014 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
07-11-2014 6:13 PM


Faith writes:
There is no such thing as faith in anything you don't believe is true.
I'd say, rather, that the strength of your faith correlates to the strength of your belief. If you really, really, really do believe in spooks then you can have a lot of faith in spooks - but if you only kind sorta believe in spooks, you won't put much faith in them.
For you, faith may be an on/off switch that goes straight from atheism to fanatical Christianity but for others it's more of a spectrum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 6:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-14-2014 2:04 AM ringo has replied
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 3:03 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 118 (733148)
07-14-2014 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
07-14-2014 2:04 AM


Phat writes:
The Just shall live by faith....not evidence.
There's a cave-in at the quote mine. Hebrews 10:38 does not say anything about evidence.
The sensible shall live by evidence. Where there is no evidence they are permitted to fall back on the inferior faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-14-2014 2:04 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 118 (733149)
07-14-2014 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
07-14-2014 3:03 AM


Faith writes:
You can believe or disbelieve in spooks, you can't have faith in them.
If you believe in them you can trust them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 3:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 3:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 97 of 118 (733233)
07-15-2014 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
07-14-2014 3:07 PM


Faith writes:
Oh DON"T be stupid. I believe there are evil entities that are not to be trusted.
Allow me to rephrase: If you believe in them, it is possible to trust them.
You can not trust what you don't believe in. What you do believe in you can choose to trust or distrust. You choose to trust your God and distrust your Satan. I choose to distrust anybody who has already destroyed the world once. That's the most evil entity I know of.
Edited by zombie ringo, : Spellin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 3:07 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 07-15-2014 2:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 111 of 118 (733337)
07-16-2014 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
07-15-2014 2:44 PM


Re: Eight Is Enough
Phat writes:
That story allowed for 8 survivors. From those 8 we all sprung.
So it's okay to destroy the World Trade Center as long as there are 8 survivors? Come on.
Phat writes:
You are just mad that God assumedly has the right to do whatever He wants.
Exactly. You are assuming that He has the right to do whatever He wants. Might makes right. I am mad at that idea.
Phat writes:
It seems that your basic argument is that you were given the tools to know right from wrong---either by divine appointment or by evolutionary development and that you want to be responsible (and all of us as well) for the legacy that you leave in this life and that you don't want any bearded super Deity to order you around! (Even if He DID exist)
Am I right?
Yes. The idea that God gave us "free will" but doesn't want us to use it doesn't make any sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 07-15-2014 2:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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