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Author | Topic: Why the Flood Never Happened | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Dating is not evidence and as usual that's all you have, and your faith in it is touching but misplaced and it misleads you about when things occurred in relation to each other. You seem to be unable to think flexibly enough to even understand a different theory. 1) Dating produces facts. Facts are one form of evidence. 2) I can't think flexibly enough to ignore huge masses of data. I certainly wouldn't want to. 3) A scientific theory is defined as the single best explanation for a given set of facts. Creationism is the exact opposite. It is the distorted facts that can be cobbled together to support an a priori religious belief. Why would anyone who was not already a believer be convinced by the ridiculous "evidence" that creationists cobble together in an effort to validate their beliefs?
The scablands were formed by the calamitous release of lake water, which is accepted science, not made up by creationists, into a landscape of basalt. AFTER the Flood. They were not formed directly by the Flood and are not attributed to the Flood itself, although the gigantic lake Missoula was no doubt left over from the Flood, and ice formation is part of the post-Flood scenario too. The dates for the scablands are arrived at by scientific methods. The date for the global flood is not. It is arrived at by various interpretations of old tribal myths, and ranges from a consensus of about 4,350 years ago to an outlandish 252 million years ago. And the funny thing is, there is no evidence for any of those interpretations! They are all made up from belief, not evidence. But, if we accept the consensus opinion on the date of the (nonexistent) flood at 4,350 years ago, then that is about a third the age of the scablands floods. In other words, the scablands came long before the date of the imaginary flood and had nothing to do with any such myths. And we see evidence for the scablands, but you and others go to great length to try and manufacture--unsuccessfully--evidence for a global flood. To no avail, as there simply isn't any. If you really look at your claims, you have the flood occurring at dozens of different ages depending on the needs of the moment, with no evidence for any of those claims. What a joke!Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
YOU GUYS DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FACT OR EVIDENCE AND INTERPRETATION OR THEORY. Drives me crazy. Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Figures you'd have to quote some source since you really don't understand what I said. If you would read that list of definitions, and learn something, you would do a lot better in scientific discussions. As it is, you are using a number of those terms incorrectly.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Please read -- and try to understand -- the definitions of "proof" and "theory" again.
Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Debating with Faith reminds me of the old quotation:
I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. Rational debate is fruitless with those who either deny reality, or whose grasp of reality is nil. Scientific debate with those same folks is impossible. So as far as this thread is concerned, I'm headed for the sidelines--though I may do some Faith-style commentary on occasion.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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And way back in the 1950's carbon-14 dating cut its baby teeth on Egyptian artefacts that had approximate dates from historical records. There have been a number of such cases, but tree-rings, varves and similar annular phenomena are even better. So, of course, the hard-core creationists have to deny, misrepresent, ignore or otherwise abuse the evidence or the method so they feel they don't have to accept it. Its funny to watch: we have Luddites among us to this very day!Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
And once again you don't know what you're talking about.
Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Woodmorappe in an article on age issues mentioned that there can be variation in the production of C14 to confuse results, referencing a Science article that clearly showed how tree rings and varves allow the correction, a matter which he of course ignored. Creation "science" at work. "Woodmorappe" (the pen name of Jan Peczkis, a grade school teacher) is not exactly the most authoritative commentator on matters of science.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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I DO NOT DEAL WITH RADIOMETRIC DATING AND DO NOT CONSIDER IT EVIDENCE ANYWAY, BECAUSE THE METHOD CANNOT BE VERIFIED. We know why you don't deal with radiometric dating--because it disproves some of your religious beliefs. Unfortunately for you, that doesn't make these dating methods go away, and it doesn't make them unverifiable. You can stick your head in the sand all you want but that doesn't alter reality in any way. Reality is out there whether you say Yea or Nay.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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But of course this is ridiculously out of scale. The number of fossils everywhere in the world found in stratified rock is so enormous the very idea of a "regular flood" being invoked to explain them is laughable. This is wrong. You are trying to make us believe, as you obviously do, that all those fossils in stratified rock are the same age, that is, 4,350 years ago, and are attributable to the biblical flood. That is such a ridiculous idea for so many reasons that only someone who is totally oblivious to evidence could accept it.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Faith writes: No, I don't follow those arguments. That's because radiometric dating is one of the essential bodies of evidence about which you're ignorant. We're all just agog at your ability to convince yourself that your scenarios make sense while fully aware of your ignorance in many areas. --Percy Dating, particularly radiometric dating, is the death-knell for the young earth belief. That's why YECs just can't accept it, and have to deny, misrepresent, obfuscate or just plain ignore all of the evidence that shows their beliefs are incorrect. Mostly they just can't deal with what the dating shows. We have seen ample evidence of this in several threads during the past few months. --Poor Mindspawn was sent screaming into the night, unable to accept the evidence that RAZD provided to him. And dating also dooms all the various scenarios that YECs come up with to try and explain a global flood. The bible puts that flood at about 4,350 years ago but there is no evidence to support a global flood at that date. So, they just hunt back in time a few years, a few thousand years, a few hundred thousand years, a few million years, or what the heck, a couple of hundred million years and pick something--anything--that might be misrepresented as a global flood. And then they run with it, ignoring all the problems that extreme dating creates! Problems? Well, such as placing the global flood some 250 million years ago, as some do, means placing modern humans back to that date. Unfortunately for them, the evidence for modern humans only goes back some 200,000 years. So, dating alone is enough to bust the YEC beliefs. No wonder they are so adamant that scientists are just making things up. But as we have seen from Faith's posts, it isn't scientists who are just making things up...Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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I can't stand the way my simple points have been twisted and misrepresented... Perhaps your problem is that your simple points are just plain wrong.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I shouldn't have to establish the already understood expectation that tectonic activity has been ongoing throughout time. And we shouldn't have to establish the already understood reality that the time frame you are citing for all of these events is absolutely incorrect. And the already understood (by most everyone but you) time frame absolutely refutes the young earth belief and the attempts to find a date for the global flood somewhere other than the 4,350 years ago date that biblical scholars agree upon. So, if you're worried about "understood expectations," you better start with time itself, not tectonic activities. Until you can disprove the current scientific understanding of earth's age, and the way that timeline is established, your beliefs and claims are unsupported. And so far, creationist's, and your, attempts to do so have fallen woefully short. I could say your efforts are like those of Denver's against Seattle this evening, but Denver put up a good effort and managed to score points... Edited by Coyote, : speelingReligious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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