|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Define literal vs non-literal. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Rather, the narrator tells us that the first three Days were not "regular solar days" when he explicitly says that the "sol" (sun) did not appear until Day 4. I believe the formulaic phrase "and then there was evening, and then there was morning" tells us that one work-day had ended and the next was about to begin. As Victor Hamilton says:
Victor Hamilton, NICOT writes: Thus it seems likely that this refrain in Genesis refers not to the computation of a day but rather to the "vacant time till the morning, the end of a day and the beginning of the next work." Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
I think I agree with everything in your post except the last phrase:
quote:It is not irrelevant to the story or to the narrator, who explicitly mentions them in Gen 1:14. If we think that something in the biblical text is "irrelevant," we are almost certainly misunderstanding the history, culture, or language of the original writer. Usually we are guilty of importing modern concerns (length of days, how it fits with modern science, etc) instead of correctly understanding the concerns of the original author.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Sorry; I incorrectly inferred this based on your reliance on YEC sources. If you're not committed to the YEC position, I recommend getting your information from more scholarly, less biased sources.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I mostly agree with what you say here. But I don't see anything in the text to suggest that the author is concerned about the lengths of the Days. I believe he is, in fact, trying to de-emphasize the length of the days by mentioning that the indicators of time don't appear until Day 4.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I don't believe I've claimed that "the length of the Jewish day has changed," have I? My position is that time is indefinite/indeterminate on the first three Days, and that the author is not trying to emphasize the length of the Days. quote:I agree that this is probably a big factor in placing the sun and moon later in the account.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:So we seem to be in full agreement here. quote:I don't believe so. quote:Maybe.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:See Message 93.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:But you had just posted this definition: Figurative language: Any use of language where the intended meaning differs from the actual literal meaning of the words themselves. There are many techniques which can rightly be called figurative language, including metaphor, simile, hyperbole, personification, onomatopoeia, verbal irony, and oxymoron. (Related: figure of speech)
The definition says that in a metaphor, " the intended meaning differs from the actual literal meaning." Yet you claim that a metaphor "would still require the literal translation." So I still don't know whether or not it is proper to call a day "literal" if the account is intended as an extended metaphor.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I don't quite know what "literal" means in this context, so I can't say whether I accept it or not. See Message 187. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Sorry--I didn't understand your question earlier. Yes, I think the Strongs definition is acceptable. But I prefer the unabridged BDB (Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew Lexicon) which is the standard source for definitions of Biblical Hebrew words.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Perhaps "extended metaphor" is too specific, then. How about "extended figure of speech?" quote:I have already done some of this in Message 93.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:So why are you now telling ME this? I'm not Peg, any more than PD is.quote:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:YOU might be talking about a particular word within a sentence, but I was not. I was talking about the overall structure of the account as indicating that it is not meant to be literal, chronological history, as I outlined in Message 93. You have characterized the account as a "just-so story." Let's consider a "just-so story" such as Rudyard Kipling's, which he means to be taken as figurative and non-historical. Do you consider the talking animals in the story to be literal, or not? They are certainly not normal animals, because they talk. But neither are these imaginary animals metaphors for something else. This is similar to the way I see the Days in Genesis 1. They aren't quite normal Days (especially the first three). But neither are they, in themselves, metaphors for something else. They are "Days" within a stylized, non-chronological account.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:And neither can you--you often refer to the entire story. (And neither should ANY of us; context is essential to determining the meanings of words.) quote:OK, so maybe "figurative" isn't the best word, either. How about I just use "non-literal" as a catch-all? (It looks like I need to go back and re-read Bullinger's "Figures of Speech" text so that I can use these terms properly!) quote:But you didn't answer my question. "Do you consider the talking animals in the story to be literal, or not?" Perhaps you are as uncomfortable calling them "literal" as I am calling the Days if Genesis "literal?" quote:I am uncomfortable calling the days "normal" because they were very unusual. I am uncomfortable calling them "24-hour" because it stresses their length, which was not the concern of the author. I am uncomfortable calling them "literal" because they are in a non-literal account (and neither do they fit your definition of "literal day", as there is no sun to rise and set). I am very uncomfortable talking of the earth's rotation, because this imports modern science into the account. I agree with the gist of your position on the days, but I can't agree on any of the specific wording that you would like me to ascribe to. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2161 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Haven't I answered your question about the Days in Genesis in a pretty much similar way? 1) We are NOT talking of historical 24-hour days.2) We ARE to visualize a relatively normal day, but with some unique and unusual features. What is unclear about this?
quote:I'm not trying to annoy you at all. I have agreed with the gist of your position on the word "day" multiple times in this thread (Message 162, Message 174, Message 212. But for some reason you are not satisfied with this, and want me to agree to some specific wording that you present. I think you are trying to over-define things. The literal meaning of "yom" as you presented in Message 184 clearly CANNOT work in the sentence, because it requires a sunset when there is no sun to set.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024