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Author Topic:   Define literal vs non-literal.
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 181 of 271 (551214)
03-21-2010 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by purpledawn
03-21-2010 6:44 PM


Re: Indicator of Days
quote:
Of course you wouldn't because he isn't. The people concerned with the length of the "days" are people trying to reconcile the Bible with science. I'm not concerned about the length of time it takes our planet to rotate. I've had a morning and an evening every day of my life so far and I don't expect it to change.
So we seem to be in full agreement here.
quote:
You're trying to read more into the story than necessary to determine how yom is being used.
I don't believe so.
quote:
The words he used would cause his audience to understand a day length like any other.
Maybe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by purpledawn, posted 03-21-2010 6:44 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 182 of 271 (551215)
03-21-2010 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by purpledawn
03-21-2010 6:49 PM


Re: Indicator of Days
quote:
Now you're getting off topic. What does this have to do with whether a word is used literally or non-literally?
Do you accept the literal definition of yom?
See Message 93.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by purpledawn, posted 03-21-2010 6:49 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 7:09 AM kbertsche has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 183 of 271 (551254)
03-22-2010 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by purpledawn
03-20-2010 8:32 AM


Re: Sentence Determines
purpledawn writes:
I know why you are saying it, but I'm curious how you imagine that it manifested itself in your interpretation.
that the creative period (which carried on for an unspecified length of time) began in the evening (a period where there is darkness, or when things were not clearly discernable) and ended in the morning (when the final outcome of the creative works for that day became clearly discernable)
its not the 'day' that is figurative, but it is the evening and morning which are figurative.
i posted this scripture earlier to back up this figurative use of evening and morning
Proverbs 4:18 the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.
in this verse the righteous persons way of life is slowly revealed until the 'day' (the light) is firmly established...IOW, when the light of day reveals his works.
So it is in the figuative 'morning' of Geneis when the results of Gods creation comes into focus and are clearly seen.
As an example, on the 3rd creative day God caused the dry land to appear. Now the creation of land requires volcanic activity, so we can imagine that millions of large volcanos were active during this period and were spewing out large amounts of lava beneath the waters until they began to form the landmasses. This isnt an overnight process as we know. It takes a long time for an island to form, so during this time was the 'evening' because the process was incomplete, but when it was complete it became the 'morning' or a period of light when all was clearly discernable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2010 8:32 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 7:35 AM Peg has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 184 of 271 (551264)
03-22-2010 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by kbertsche
03-21-2010 9:21 PM


Re: Indicator of Days
Message 93 doesn't answer my question.
Do you accept the literal definition of yom?
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next),
There is still a difference between understanding that the word yom is used literally within the sentence, and whether the overall story actually happened as written or not.
As I've said before, this thread isn't really addressing the latter.
As I said in Message 97, To determine whether a word is used literally or figuratively has nothing to do with whether the story actually happened. A true story can have literal and figurative language. A fictional story can have literal and figurative language. A story containing fact and fiction (faction) can have literal and figurative language.
Metaphor: A direct relationship where one thing or idea substitutes for another.
Quite frankly, those implying that even though the word yom is used literally; but the story is metaphorical still haven't provided the clues within the story or from history to support that position.
For an author to substitute one thing or idea for another, the author would need to understand both of those ideas and so would his audience.
I feel people are trying to make the story metaphorical because today science tells us that the planet and life on it could not be created in 7 solar days. I can't say what the average ancient person understood the story as metaphorical.
Show me what thing or idea is being substituted for another and that both ideas were understood by the author and his audience.
IMO, it isn't metaphorical. It's just a story that isn't intended to reconcile with our science today.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by kbertsche, posted 03-21-2010 9:21 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by kbertsche, posted 03-22-2010 8:50 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 185 of 271 (551268)
03-22-2010 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Peg
03-22-2010 5:08 AM


Morning and Evening
Not much for directly answering a question are you?
quote:
PurpleDawn writes:
Do you understand that the fist use of yom in Genesis 1:5 is just a name?
I've been assuming that you view the second use of yom in Genesis 1:5 as several rotations of the planet instead of one. Is that correct?
that the creative period (which carried on for an unspecified length of time) began in the evening (a period where there is darkness, or when things were not clearly discernable) and ended in the morning (when the final outcome of the creative works for that day became clearly discernable)
quote:
its not the 'day' that is figurative, but it is the evening and morning which are figurative.
i posted this scripture earlier to back up this figurative use of evening and morning
Proverbs 4:18 the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.
There is nothing in the Genesis 1:5 text to suggest the usage of evening and morning are figurative.
In Message 80, I agreed that the use in Proverbs 4:18 is figurative. It is a simile. It is structured as a simile. Genesis 1:5 is not structured to be read figuratively. Proverbs 4:18 doesn't shine any light on the use of the words ereb, boqer, or yom in Genesis 1:5.
quote:
in this verse the righteous persons way of life is slowly revealed until the 'day' (the light) is firmly established...IOW, when the light of day reveals his works.
So it is in the figuative 'morning' of Geneis when the results of Gods creation comes into focus and are clearly seen.
As an example, on the 3rd creative day God caused the dry land to appear. Now the creation of land requires volcanic activity, so we can imagine that millions of large volcanos were active during this period and were spewing out large amounts of lava beneath the waters until they began to form the landmasses. This isnt an overnight process as we know. It takes a long time for an island to form, so during this time was the 'evening' because the process was incomplete, but when it was complete it became the 'morning' or a period of light when all was clearly discernable.
You're trying to reconcile what the Bible says with science of today. That is not how one determines whether a word, sentence, or story is used literally or figuratively.
figurative language: a type of language that varies from the norms of literal language, in which words mean exactly what they say. Also known as the "ornaments of language," figurative language does not mean exactly what it says, but instead forces the reader to make an imaginative leap in order to comprehend an author's point. It usually involves a comparison between two things that may not, at first, seem to relate to one another. In a simile, for example, an author may compare a person to an animal: "He ran like a hare down the street" is the figurative way to describe the man running and "He ran very quickly down the street" is the literal way to describe him. Figurative language facilitates understanding because it relates something unfamiliar to something familiar. Some popular examples of figurative language include a simile and metaphor.
Your own words from Message 11.
Peg writes:
It comes down to the meaning of the original word and the context of the passage...(Read the bulk of the msg at the link)
So context and original word meanings is what determine literalness.
Just because you don't believe God could cause the dry land to appear in one solar day, doesn't mean the author and his audience didn't believe he could.
Show me within the sentence of Genesis 1:5 the indicators that tell us evening and morning are being used figuratively.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Peg, posted 03-22-2010 5:08 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by hERICtic, posted 03-22-2010 8:06 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 194 by Peg, posted 03-22-2010 6:37 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 195 by Peg, posted 03-22-2010 6:55 PM purpledawn has replied

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 186 of 271 (551271)
03-22-2010 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by purpledawn
03-22-2010 7:35 AM


Re: Morning and Evening
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
in this verse the righteous persons way of life is slowly revealed until the 'day' (the light) is firmly established...IOW, when the light of day reveals his works.
So it is in the figuative 'morning' of Geneis when the results of Gods creation comes into focus and are clearly seen.
As an example, on the 3rd creative day God caused the dry land to appear. Now the creation of land requires volcanic activity, so we can imagine that millions of large volcanos were active during this period and were spewing out large amounts of lava beneath the waters until they began to form the landmasses. This isnt an overnight process as we know. It takes a long time for an island to form, so during this time was the 'evening' because the process was incomplete, but when it was complete it became the 'morning' or a period of light when all was clearly discernable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to correct a point. Genesis clearly states the earth was covered by water first, then dry land appeared. Its the other way around. It was the volcanos, on dry land, which spewed forth gasses which created water vapor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 7:35 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 9:56 AM hERICtic has not replied

kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 187 of 271 (551281)
03-22-2010 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by purpledawn
03-15-2010 8:16 AM


Re: Was Evening and Was Morning
quote:
If the author wrote the story as a metaphor for billions of years of creation/evolution, then the word "yom" would still require the literal translation of a solar day. If it didn't, then the story wouldn't be a metaphor.
But you had just posted this definition:
Figurative language: Any use of language where the intended meaning differs from the actual literal meaning of the words themselves. There are many techniques which can rightly be called figurative language, including metaphor, simile, hyperbole, personification, onomatopoeia, verbal irony, and oxymoron. (Related: figure of speech)
The definition says that in a metaphor, " the intended meaning differs from the actual literal meaning." Yet you claim that a metaphor "would still require the literal translation."
So I still don't know whether or not it is proper to call a day "literal" if the account is intended as an extended metaphor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by purpledawn, posted 03-15-2010 8:16 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 10:57 AM kbertsche has replied

kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 188 of 271 (551283)
03-22-2010 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by purpledawn
03-22-2010 7:09 AM


Re: Indicator of Days
quote:
Message 93 doesn't answer my question.
Do you accept the literal definition of yom?
I don't quite know what "literal" means in this context, so I can't say whether I accept it or not. See Message 187.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 7:09 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 10:34 AM kbertsche has replied
 Message 192 by hERICtic, posted 03-22-2010 11:05 AM kbertsche has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 189 of 271 (551302)
03-22-2010 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by hERICtic
03-22-2010 8:06 AM


Re: Morning and Evening
quote:
Just to correct a point. Genesis clearly states the earth was covered by water first, then dry land appeared. Its the other way around. It was the volcanos, on dry land, which spewed forth gasses which created water vapor.
Why are you telling me this?
It isn't my comment and it has nothing to do with literal or non-literal when it comes to understanding the use of words within a sentence.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by hERICtic, posted 03-22-2010 8:06 AM hERICtic has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 190 of 271 (551309)
03-22-2010 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by kbertsche
03-22-2010 8:50 AM


Re: Indicator of Days
quote:
I don't quite know what "literal" means in this context, so I can't say whether I accept it or not.
Think of the word "day" with nothing else around it. If that was all you could say to another person, what would they understand?
The definition gives the literal meaning of the word yom. Either you agree with the definition or you don't.
Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by kbertsche, posted 03-22-2010 8:50 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Peg, posted 03-22-2010 7:05 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 200 by kbertsche, posted 03-22-2010 8:31 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 191 of 271 (551317)
03-22-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by kbertsche
03-22-2010 8:46 AM


Re: Was Evening and Was Morning
quote:
The definition says that in a metaphor, " the intended meaning differs from the actual literal meaning." Yet you claim that a metaphor "would still require the literal translation."
So I still don't know whether or not it is proper to call a day "literal" if the account is intended as an extended metaphor.
A metaphor is one technique. Understand the technique. There are various types of metaphors. 18 Types of Metaphors
By definition, a metaphor is a figure of speech where two entirely dissimilar words or phrases are brought together to suggest a similarity.
You suggest extended metaphor:
1. Extended or telescoping metaphor or conceit
When your metaphoric insight has developed, then you cannot restrain yourself to just one metaphor. Like —
All the world’s a stage and men and women merely players.
This extension — Men and women are merely players has made this an extended metaphor. The author stretched the world and a stage by introducing parts of the world (men and women) and a stage (players). Of course, it has to make sense. You can’t extend it by comparing men and women to an ipod. Sounds distasteful? Exactly.
I don't see this technique in Genesis 1:5.
Metaphor the comparison of two UNLIKE things. Simile, personification, anthropomorphism and analogy are metaphors.
Metaphors are used to help us understand the unknown, because we use what we know in comparison with something we don't know to get a better understanding of the unknown
In this example that all the world's a stage. The words "world" and "stage" have several meanings each. How do you decide which meaning of each word is to be used in this metaphor?
The planet is a theatre stage or a step in the process?
The afterlife is a theatre stage or a step in the process?
The human race is like a theatre stage or a step in the process?
I don't see that Genesis 1:5 is written as a metaphor. The metaphor would have to mean something to the writer and the audience and I don't see that the reasons provided so far support that.
And God called the light Day and the darkness he called Night And the evening and the morning were the first day
If you still disagree, then show me the words that make it a metaphor. Where are the dissimilar words the author is bringing together. What is being compared?

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by kbertsche, posted 03-22-2010 8:46 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by kbertsche, posted 03-22-2010 8:36 PM purpledawn has replied

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 192 of 271 (551319)
03-22-2010 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by kbertsche
03-22-2010 8:50 AM


Re: Indicator of Days
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to correct a point. Genesis clearly states the earth was covered by water first, then dry land appeared. Its the other way around. It was the volcanos, on dry land, which spewed forth gasses which created water vapor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PD writes:
Why are you telling me this?
It isn't my comment and it has nothing to do with literal or non-literal when it comes to understanding the use of words within a sentence.
I'm not telling you this, but Peg. Its her quote (my apologies for not including her name though). But yes, it does matter, since Peg brought it up to add validity to her stance. Shes trying to make Genesis 1:9 fit modern science, to prove YOM is actually a long period of time. The problem though, her premise is faulty, therefore her conclusion based upon that premise is.
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by kbertsche, posted 03-22-2010 8:50 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 4:36 PM hERICtic has not replied
 Message 203 by kbertsche, posted 03-22-2010 8:38 PM hERICtic has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 193 of 271 (551403)
03-22-2010 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by hERICtic
03-22-2010 11:05 AM


Re: Indicator of Days
quote:
I'm not telling you this, but Peg. Its her quote (my apologies for not including her name though). But yes, it does matter, since Peg brought it up to add validity to her stance. Shes trying to make Genesis 1:9 fit modern science, to prove YOM is actually a long period of time. The problem though, her premise is faulty, therefore her conclusion based upon that premise is.
Then reply to her message, not mine. The reply button is at the bottom of message you are responding to, not the top.
The post I'm responding to was a response to kbertsche not me. Pay attention to what you're doing. Make sure you're responding to the right message.
What she brought up has nothing to do with the meaning of yom and you correcting her doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of yom or how to determine if a word is used literally or not.
This is not an accuracy and inerrancy thread. Keep to the topic please.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by hERICtic, posted 03-22-2010 11:05 AM hERICtic has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 194 of 271 (551440)
03-22-2010 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by purpledawn
03-22-2010 7:35 AM


Re: Morning and Evening
purpledawn writes:
You're trying to reconcile what the Bible says with science of today. That is not how one determines whether a word, sentence, or story is used literally or figuratively.
of course it can be and it should be.
the bible uses figurative language throughout and we know its figurative because we know the earth is not really a 'building' as such...or there are no 4 corners to it, humans are not the sea, the heart does not think, the earth is not a footstool, it does not sit on foundations etc etc etc
because we know the facts we should be able to look at these verses and say, 'well they are not literal because...'
Why shoudl it be any different with genesis...especially considering it uses the word Yom in a symbolic way in genesis? You cant use modern english to determine the meaning behind the hebrew language....why do you think the english bible has been revised so many times??? Its because the hebrews think differently to us, they construct their sentences differently to us, they structure their thoughts differently to us and they have words that have a multiple of meanings and can be used in a multitude of different ways.
Yom and day are really worlds apart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 7:35 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 7:40 PM Peg has replied
 Message 198 by killinghurts, posted 03-22-2010 7:53 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 195 of 271 (551447)
03-22-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by purpledawn
03-22-2010 7:35 AM


Re: Morning and Evening
purpledawn writes:
Show me within the sentence of Genesis 1:5 the indicators that tell us evening and morning are being used figuratively.
Gen 1:3 uses a progressive verb which means the light was not instantaneous. And God proceeded to say. is a Hebrew verb wai.yo'mer which is a progressive action. Its not instant and this same verb is used more then 40 times in Genesis. Its not like God flicked a switch and suddenly there was light...the light came to be over a period of time.
here is a translator who actually puts this thought into his translation
J.W. Watts in A Distinctive Translation of Genesis writes:
And gradually light came into existence.
And as i've already mentioned, because it uses a word that has many meanings including figurative meanings, then its not impossible that moses meant for it have a figurative meaning.
William Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies writes:
A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration ... Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens.
show in genesis 1:5 how any of these meanings cannot apply.
Show me that Moses viewed the yom of genesis as a 24 hour day...explain why he would write that the 'light' was called 'yom' if he was thinking of time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 7:35 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by purpledawn, posted 03-22-2010 8:07 PM Peg has not replied

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