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Author Topic:   Define literal vs non-literal.
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 6 of 271 (546504)
02-11-2010 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Sky-Writing
02-11-2010 8:59 AM


Re: Rules
There is a set of guidelines for Literalistic interpretation.
If you don't believe the entire Bible is "God Breathed" then you generally don't use this methodology:
Take what you read and consider it in the context of the sentence before it and the one after it.
Then the paragraph before it and the one after it.
Then the Book in order before it, and the one after it.
In other words, the procedure assumes that the Bible explains itself fully and REQUIRES no additional outside information for full understanding. It doesn't exclude outside sources. Just that none are required.
There is a set of guidelines for Literalistic interpretation.
If you don't believe the entire Bible is "God Breathed" then you generally don't use this methodology:
Take what you read and consider it in the context of the sentence before it and the one after it.
Then the paragraph before it and the one after it.
Then the Book in order before it, and the one after it.
In other words, the procedure assumes that the Bible explains itself fully and REQUIRES no additional outside information for full understanding. It doesn't exclude outside sources. Just that none are required.
You might believe that this is the right way to read the Bible, but I cannot see how it's a definition of what it is to read something literally.
Even assuming that by reading the Bible alone, and without reference to knowledge extrinsic to it, I would learn enough about human and avian anatomy and the limits of the biologically possible to interpret what is meant by the phrase "thou hast doves' eyes", is it not clear that the correct interpretation would in fact be non-literal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 8:59 AM Sky-Writing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 12:52 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 10 of 271 (546598)
02-11-2010 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Sky-Writing
02-11-2010 12:52 PM


Re: Rules
You have taken a phrase out of context.
When you assert that the whole Bible has to be used as context, it is hard for me to do anything else.
My FIRST interpretation,
the one that will give me the most insight,
is to assume "the speaker" is talking to "a dove " and I may not yet know what a "Dove" is.
In other words, your immediate response to the passage is that you don't think the the word dove should be taken literally as meaning a dove --- a bird of the family Columbidae. That is a non-literal interpretation which I confess had not occurred to me.
I will assume the speaker is talking to a dove ...
... but that dove doesn't mean dove ...
... until I read the content before and the content after the phrase. But holding
on to the most literal interpretation of the content will always
reveal more about what is intended, than automatically dismissing the most obvious meaning and jumping on to
"What ANY idiot can see is the REAL meaning, especially in light of....":
But in this case the first non-literal interpretation that popped into your head is not the "most literal interpretation" nor the interpretation that reveals most about what is intended.
If you go the OTHER way, the process is the same.
What is that word in the Greek?
Where is that Greek word used and what did that Greek word
mean in the other places it was used. Same process. Start from where you are and work outwords.
It's Hebrew, and in other contexts it means dove.
Now, If you assume the bible is a collection of stories from 40 authors, handed down by word of mouth over countless generations until the original story is completely reshaped, then its natural to question each sentence and assume it's only vaguely related to the original intent and immediately begin guessing at its actual meaning.
If you assume that it's the unaltered word of God, it's still fairly natural to try to figure out what it means.
When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. (David L. Cooper, The World’s Greatest Library Graphically Illustrated. Los Angeles: Biblical Research Society, 1970)
But this is not what you have done. So far from taking the word "dove" at its "primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning", you have leaped to the conclusion that it doesn't mean dove.
Meanwhile I, while taking the word "dove", to mean "dove", am reading the whole phrase as a metaphor.
And Cooper, so far from advocating rigid literalism, is merely saying that literalism should be the default assumption. Which is fair enough.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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 Message 9 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 12:52 PM Sky-Writing has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 271 (547985)
02-24-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
02-15-2010 9:03 PM


No. I trust the account of human existence as found in the timeline of the bible because when we look at human history we know that human language is within the 6,000 's, We know that that majority of human artifacts found and dated fall within that range. We know civilisations emerged in the 6000 year range and that the farming revolution appeared within the 6,000 year range so with all that evidence ...
It doesn't count as evidence if you make it up.

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 Message 22 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 9:03 PM Peg has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 29 of 271 (547986)
02-24-2010 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by killinghurts
02-15-2010 10:29 PM


I'd like to see some references as to why carbon dating "starts going a bit wirey" after a few thousand years. Apart from ...
Well clearly there he's talking about the situation before the invention of carbon dating anyway.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 118 of 271 (550538)
03-16-2010 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by ICANT
03-14-2010 5:15 PM


* coughs gently *
You can change the numbers all you want to represent anything you want but the duration of the rotation of the earth is very close to the same all the time, it just gets a little shorter as the earth slows down.
Longer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ICANT, posted 03-14-2010 5:15 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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