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Author | Topic: Define literal vs non-literal. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Of course you wouldn't because he isn't. The people concerned with the length of the "days" are people trying to reconcile the Bible with science. I'm not concerned about the length of time it takes our planet to rotate. I've had a morning and an evening every day of my life so far and I don't expect it to change. You're trying to read more into the story than necessary to determine how yom is being used. The words he used would cause his audience to understand a day length like any other. There isn't anything in the text that changes the meaning of the word yom to a figurative use in Genesis 1:5. The text is very straight forward. The usage of yom in this instance is literal which means it refers to the name of the light in the first usage in the sentence and refers to the time it takes the planet to rotate in the second usage. I also agree with what PaulK said in Message 175. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Now you're getting off topic. What does this have to do with whether a word is used literally or non-literally? Do you accept the literal definition of yom? Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Message 93 doesn't answer my question.
Do you accept the literal definition of yom?
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), There is still a difference between understanding that the word yom is used literally within the sentence, and whether the overall story actually happened as written or not. As I've said before, this thread isn't really addressing the latter. As I said in Message 97, To determine whether a word is used literally or figuratively has nothing to do with whether the story actually happened. A true story can have literal and figurative language. A fictional story can have literal and figurative language. A story containing fact and fiction (faction) can have literal and figurative language. Metaphor: A direct relationship where one thing or idea substitutes for another. Quite frankly, those implying that even though the word yom is used literally; but the story is metaphorical still haven't provided the clues within the story or from history to support that position. For an author to substitute one thing or idea for another, the author would need to understand both of those ideas and so would his audience. I feel people are trying to make the story metaphorical because today science tells us that the planet and life on it could not be created in 7 solar days. I can't say what the average ancient person understood the story as metaphorical. Show me what thing or idea is being substituted for another and that both ideas were understood by the author and his audience. IMO, it isn't metaphorical. It's just a story that isn't intended to reconcile with our science today. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Not much for directly answering a question are you?
quote: quote:There is nothing in the Genesis 1:5 text to suggest the usage of evening and morning are figurative. In Message 80, I agreed that the use in Proverbs 4:18 is figurative. It is a simile. It is structured as a simile. Genesis 1:5 is not structured to be read figuratively. Proverbs 4:18 doesn't shine any light on the use of the words ereb, boqer, or yom in Genesis 1:5.
quote:You're trying to reconcile what the Bible says with science of today. That is not how one determines whether a word, sentence, or story is used literally or figuratively. figurative language: a type of language that varies from the norms of literal language, in which words mean exactly what they say. Also known as the "ornaments of language," figurative language does not mean exactly what it says, but instead forces the reader to make an imaginative leap in order to comprehend an author's point. It usually involves a comparison between two things that may not, at first, seem to relate to one another. In a simile, for example, an author may compare a person to an animal: "He ran like a hare down the street" is the figurative way to describe the man running and "He ran very quickly down the street" is the literal way to describe him. Figurative language facilitates understanding because it relates something unfamiliar to something familiar. Some popular examples of figurative language include a simile and metaphor. Your own words from Message 11.
Peg writes: It comes down to the meaning of the original word and the context of the passage...(Read the bulk of the msg at the link) So context and original word meanings is what determine literalness. Just because you don't believe God could cause the dry land to appear in one solar day, doesn't mean the author and his audience didn't believe he could. Show me within the sentence of Genesis 1:5 the indicators that tell us evening and morning are being used figuratively. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Why are you telling me this? It isn't my comment and it has nothing to do with literal or non-literal when it comes to understanding the use of words within a sentence. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Think of the word "day" with nothing else around it. If that was all you could say to another person, what would they understand? The definition gives the literal meaning of the word yom. Either you agree with the definition or you don't. Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:A metaphor is one technique. Understand the technique. There are various types of metaphors. 18 Types of Metaphors By definition, a metaphor is a figure of speech where two entirely dissimilar words or phrases are brought together to suggest a similarity. You suggest extended metaphor:
1. Extended or telescoping metaphor or conceit When your metaphoric insight has developed, then you cannot restrain yourself to just one metaphor. Like — All the world’s a stage and men and women merely players. This extension — Men and women are merely players has made this an extended metaphor. The author stretched the world and a stage by introducing parts of the world (men and women) and a stage (players). Of course, it has to make sense. You can’t extend it by comparing men and women to an ipod. Sounds distasteful? Exactly. I don't see this technique in Genesis 1:5.
Metaphor the comparison of two UNLIKE things. Simile, personification, anthropomorphism and analogy are metaphors. Metaphors are used to help us understand the unknown, because we use what we know in comparison with something we don't know to get a better understanding of the unknown In this example that all the world's a stage. The words "world" and "stage" have several meanings each. How do you decide which meaning of each word is to be used in this metaphor?The planet is a theatre stage or a step in the process? The afterlife is a theatre stage or a step in the process? The human race is like a theatre stage or a step in the process? I don't see that Genesis 1:5 is written as a metaphor. The metaphor would have to mean something to the writer and the audience and I don't see that the reasons provided so far support that.
And God called the light Day and the darkness he called Night And the evening and the morning were the first day If you still disagree, then show me the words that make it a metaphor. Where are the dissimilar words the author is bringing together. What is being compared? Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Then reply to her message, not mine. The reply button is at the bottom of message you are responding to, not the top. The post I'm responding to was a response to kbertsche not me. Pay attention to what you're doing. Make sure you're responding to the right message. What she brought up has nothing to do with the meaning of yom and you correcting her doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of yom or how to determine if a word is used literally or not. This is not an accuracy and inerrancy thread. Keep to the topic please. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:There's a difference between whether the verse describes something that actually happened and whether the words in the sentence are used literally. This discussion isn't about whether the verses describe something that actually happened as stated. It is about what a word means within a sentence. Genesis 1:5 isn't written figuratively and you haven't shown otherwise.
quote:No they aren't. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:There was a whole rotation of the planet for the light to gradually come into existence. I don't see that it changes the use of the word yom in Genesis 1:5. quote:Yes, it is impossible that Moses meant for it to have a figurative meaning. The writer didn't write the sentence figurative. My guess is you don't understand figurative language either. What imaginative leap did the writer's audience need to make in order to comprehend the author's point? What two unrelated things are being compared?
quote:You can't show me the figurative language in the sentence, but you want me to tell you what Moses knew? Rudely done. I've already showed you what they understood about time, at the time Genesis 1 was written. Message 80 Wilson is correct in what he says, but it doesn't apply in Genesis 1:5. Just because a word can be used a certain way, doesn't mean that it is. You have to show me that Geenesis 1:5 was writtenin a way that requires the figurative use of yom. You haven't done that yet. The literal meaning of yom refers to the light period of time of a solar day and it also refers to a solar day (rotation of the planet). I didn't make up the meaning. Message 80 You're focusing on the figurative meanings of yom without a reason. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Seriously???? No they aren't. Yom:1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)." Day1. the time of light between one night and the next 2. the mean solar day of 24 hours beginning at mean midnight 3. one of these days at some future time 4. (sometimes plural) a period or point in time he was a good singer in his day in days gone by any day now Just as with the word yom there are indicators that make the English word day part of an idiom which then gives it the figurative meanings. As you have been shown and as you have just provided the definition, we see the literal meanings of the word yom and the figurative meanings. To use the figurative meanings the indicators have to be there. You can't just deem it so. When "yom" is rendered year it is not the same form as used in Genesis 1:5. miyamimyamimah. yamim In Genesis 1:5 it is rendered "yovm". There is a difference that caused the translator to use the word year instead of day. You can't just render the meaning figurative without the necessary indicators. Show me the indicators.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Show me that is even something viable. Link with examples. quote:No, message 93 doesn't provide what words within the sentence make it a metaphor.quote:I have already done some of this in Message 93. It doesn't matter how the writer categorized the creation. We are talking about a word within a sentence. What words within the sentence makes the sentence a metaphor or figurative or that causes us to use one of the figurative meanings of yom? Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Apparently you and Peg can't make your case within the sentence, so we move out to the story. Fine, but stop using figurative as a catch all. Just-So-Stories are fiction. As I said in Message 97: Whether the story portrays real events or not is more of an accuracy and inerrancy discussion. To determine whether a word is used literally or figuratively has nothing to do with whether the story actually happened. A true story can have literal and figurative language. A fictional story can have literal and figurative language. A story containing fact and fiction (faction) can have literal and figurative language. quote:Just-So-Stories are fiction and the author means them to be taken as such. You throw literal around like you do figurative. What do you mean by literal? Use the word "exist" if you are talking about whether something exists in real life. Use common meaning, if you are referring to the meaning of the word used. No, we are not to assume the talking animals exist in real life. Yes, we are to visualize a whale per the common usage of the word, but with a bigger throat.
How the Whale Got His Throat The story is fiction, which means it didn't happen in reality.The animals are talking. That's personification, a literary technique. I'm sure Kipling used various literary techniques within the story. The story as a whole is not figurative, as you like to put it. The story is not expressing one thing in terms normally denoting another. The listener is to visualize the story just as it is written. They are to visualize the sailor dragging a wooden grate up a whale's throat.
But while the Whale had been swimming, the Mariner, who was indeed a person of infinite-resource-and-sagacity, had taken his jack-knife and cut up the raft into a little square grating all running criss- cross, and he had tied it firm with his suspenders (_now_, you know why you were not to forget the suspenders!), and he dragged that grating good and tight into the Whale's throat, and there it stuck! In Genesis 1:5 the listener is to visualize a regular length day just without the sun, moon, stars, etc.
quote:They weren't normal, in the sense that certain things weren't created yet, but they were normal length per the common meaning of the word yom as it is used in the sentence. The common meaning of the word "yom" is a name for light as opposed to dark (not the sun, moon, or stars) and it refers to the length of time it takes the earth to rotate once. The word doesn't refer to the sun, moon, or stars. So it is irrelevant whether they are present. The common meaning of yom is used in Genesus 1:5. There is nothing in the story or the sentence to denote any longer time or any figurative usage. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I think you need to pull the beam out of your own eye, Peg, then read Message 202. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Don't use a catch all. Be specific as you expect me to be. quote:I did depending on what you mean by literal. I asked you to clarify what you mean by literal and I gave answers for different meanings. Literal, as we are using it, is an adjective. Noun 1. literal - a mistake in printed matter resulting from mechanical failures of some kind erratum, literal error, misprint, typo, typographical error mistake, error - part of a statement that is not correct; "the book was full of errors" Adj. 1. literal - being or reflecting the essential or genuine character of something; "her actual motive"; "a literal solitude like a desert"- G.K.Chesterton; "a genuine dilemma"actual, genuine, real true - consistent with fact or reality; not false; "the story is true"; "it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true"- B. Russell; "the true meaning of the statement" 2. literal - without interpretation or embellishment; "a literal depiction of the scene before him"exact - marked by strict and particular and complete accordance with fact; "an exact mind"; "an exact copy"; "hit the exact center of the target" 3. literal - limited to the explicit meaning of a word or text; "a literal translation"exact - marked by strict and particular and complete accordance with fact; "an exact mind"; "an exact copy"; "hit the exact center of the target" unrhetorical - not rhetorical figurative, nonliteral - (used of the meanings of words or text) not literal; using figures of speech; "figurative language" 4. literal - avoiding embellishment or exaggeration (used for emphasis); "it's the literal truth"plain - not elaborate or elaborated; simple; "plain food"; "stuck to the plain facts"; "a plain blue suit"; "a plain rectangular brick building" My response to you was: No, we are not to assume the talking animals exist in real life. (That means, no there aren't literally talking animals in the world.) Yes, we are to visualize a whale per the common usage of the word, but with a bigger throat. (That means it is a literal whale as per the common use of the word whale.) The whale is a whale, the man is a man, and the fish is a fish. Since you don't feel these answer your question, you need to clarify what you feel the word literal means without using the word literal.
quote:Good grief! You're making a mountain out of a mole hill and yes, I think you literally are out there trying to turn a mole hill into a mountain just to annoy me. You're over thinking it. The common literal meaning of the word yom is called for in the sentence. Message 80You need more than your discomfort to support a figurative use. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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