In His own image .....

For that matter, can you provide evidence of the limits of the human mind? At least in terms of an inability to concieve or think of something. (Clearly there's things the mind can't do, like jump out of my head and grab a beer from the fridge.) I think it's pretty clear that the mind can grasp any concept.I mean, I have no trouble grasping the true nature of god. It's a symbol we create to personify certain anthropomorphisms we impose on the universe (absolute moral code, persistence of being, etc). Not too hard to bend one's mind around.The "ineffability" argument has always struck me as a kind of self-flaggelation. I mean, if I was arguing with someone else who disagreed with me, and I told them "your mind is just too limited to understand", that wouldn't be a logical position. Why then should I apply that to myself?------------------
Epimenedes Signature: This is not a signature.

What is a "life principle"? You might be interested to know that the life processes that insects use are functionally the same as the life processes of "higher" animals.There's no such thing as a mystic "life force" or something. There's no animating vital force that causes things to live. That's mystic science-fiction. Life is life, and it's just a peculiar and unique combination of basic matter, the same as anything else.(Don't get me wrong, S-F fans, I LOVE science-fiction. I just don't like it in the place of science.)

Not even remotely.My question was, what fundamental difference is there between the life processes of animals and those of bugs and plants? Differences of degree are not fundamental.

I think his point was that the optimum way for god to maximise free will is not a hands-off policy, but to intervene occasionally because some human actions prevent the excercise of free will by other humans. For instance, a murderer may be excercising free will by firing a gun at me, but what about my free will? I can't use my free will if I'm dead. Therefore if god was really concerned about free will god would let the gun fire but stop the bullet, preserving my life so that I could still have free will.

No, he still has free will. He still made the choice, pulled the trigger, fired the bullet. He can still go to jail for attempted murder.That's what free will is, right? Making choices? His ability to choose was not impared. He made the choice to pull the trigger. But the consequences of that action were interrupted. Free will doesn't mean you get to control the consequences, only the choices you yourself make. As you said, free will doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want. It just means you get to make whatever choices you want to - the consequences of those choices are not under your control.Anyway, why does a killer deserve to have his free will protected over an innocent victim's?[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 06-11-2003]

And that's bad how, exactly?

no, it's more important, apparently - God won't intervene to protect my free will, but he'll allow the killer's free will to run rampant.Isn't it much more likely - logical, even - to assume that there is no god at all? That avoids all these ridiculous cirumlocutions about "free will" and divine intervention. We have free will because there is no being who can intercede. Makes much more sense to me.

To some extent. But parents intercede in the free will of those they are responsible for; in fact we consider them negligent if they do not. If we are god's children, why isn't god looking out for us a little better? The obvious answer to me is, we're not god's children because there is no god. When you're replying, right beside the text box it says "*UBB code is ON". If you click those words (it's a link) you'll see a guide to using the UBB codes to quote and do other stuff.

Another question is, is the mother right in doing so? Probably. Therefore isn't it negligent of god to allow us to rape and kill each other at will without intercession?Parents intercede to protect their children from harm. Why shouldn't god do the same thing?

it's more than that, though. (I won't even ask how our will can be free if the outcome is preordained.) In some places in the bible god is actually changing the minds of people - preempting their free will and choice to ensure that they choose what god wants them to choose. For instance, god hardening Pharoh's heart against the plight of Moses's people.