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Author | Topic: Must religion be logical? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Religion are never logical. They cannot be.
Religion are only logical for thoses who have grew up indoctrined in it. Christian thinks there religion are logical.Muslim thinks there religion are logical. Boudhists thinks there religion are logical. Scientologue thinks there religion are logical. [insert any religion] thinks there religion are logical. They all think the others religions are illogical. It's like the Boiling Frog SyndromePut a frog in boiling water he'll try to escape. Put a frog in cold water and rise the temperaure slowly. He will eventually die without a fight. That's the same thing that happens to our mind. Scientology is logical to thoses in it for a reason. Bcause they slowly give you pieces of information that seems to be logical. And slowly they "rise" the temperature. Gradually you will find everything so..so logical, and you will defend your belief because its SO logical to you. You even will have confirmation by personal experience. Many follower of every religions claim to have thoses personal experiment that proves in there eyes the validity of there belief. And yet, they must be wrong, since one thing IS for sure, there isn't 2 religions that can be simultaneously true. Religion cannot be logical, the follower of the religions are the only one that find it logical.Everyone outside of the believer's bubble thinks he's making zero sense. EDIT :I forgot to answer the topic title. Yes religions MUST be logical for thoses who follow it. But to the non-follower, it usually makes no sense. AlienInvisible force that can do anything and cares for you Pregnancy with no sex All theses make no sense unless you ve been indoctrined to believe the premiss that will lead you to the path of believing the whole assertion.... Edited by Kader, : No reason given.
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Jar as I try to explain to you too
Jesus cannot be both God and Man. He is either God, or he is either Man.Islamic version of Jesus do NOT fit with the christian version at all. So again, you might not think that Jesus is the son of God literrally. But most christian do, and when I use the term christian, I use it to represent the majority of what christian believe. Hence that Jesus wasn't a just a man, he was the son of God. Islam says that God cannot have either sons or kins, he is unique, and if you are christian you MUST believe in the trinity. So again, IF islam and christianity were the only option, well one of the belief would have to be wrong. Either God can have a son (jesus) or he Can't. And if you are christian you believe that muslim are wrong on there interpretation , and if you are muslim you believe the christian are wrong. So again, its very easy to grasp, different religion preach different things and sometimes they come in conflict. And in this conflict either both are wrong or one of them is right. Edited by Kader, : No reason given.
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
So again, its very easy to grasp, different religion preach different things and sometimes they come in conflict. And in this conflict either both are wrong or one of them is right. Or they are both wrong or they are both partially right and partially wrong. Exactly how can they be both partially wrong and partially right. Here it is, God has a sonGod cannot have a son How can theses be both partially right and wrong ?If you are muslim you hold the second statement to be true If you are christian you hold the first stament to be true. Even if by some crazy logic you could come up with some middle ground between theses simple statments, is not the christian way and it is not the muslim way.
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Wait, my question was simple.
Do you believe that God can or cannot have childrens ? If you believe he can, you may call yourself christian and you HAVE to disgree with the Islamic views of God(or what he will or won't do). And vice versa.
Many questions such as the divinity of Jesus cannot be tested or verified by anyone living. But to a christian Jesus being divine is logical. It doesn't need any proof.
Other things such as ways of treating others can be tested and verified. Verified against what ? morality ? It is very logical to threat everyone the way we woulds like to be treated. What is your point ? That religions are logical ? Not at all A religion is a whole, when someone say's he is a christian that means he believe in the bible (or some part of it). And he BELIEVE that Jesus is the son of God. There is no partial truth here, If you think that jesus MIGHT be the son of God then you are not a christian. I think Jesus might be the son of god, I never ruled out the possibility, but up to now, having no evidence of his existance makes me tend to believe that he actually didn't exist.
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
I think Jesus might be the son of god, I never ruled out the possibility, but up to now, having no evidence of his existance makes me tend to believe that he actually didn't exist. Okay, that is a reasonable position to hold. But remember, even if we had absolutely conclusive proof that he did exist, it would not speak to the issue of his divinity. So then can we agree that believing that Jesus is the son of God is illogical ?
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
I don't find it illogical but then you might. You are not me and it is not simply reasonable, but logical that you will hold different beliefs than I do. Well if you were to explain to me how come Jesus is Divine you woul dprobably have to quote the Bible. And in any event where I would say "but the bible is full of errors why should I believe this part ?" would you simply smile and say "It is, but...." I want to know the logic of what you could say after that "but...." Please try and explain to me how logical it is for you
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
So logically, I see the story of Jesus as what a real loving GOD would do, showing us not just by words, not just by profession, but through action and reality what His message, presence and communion is all about. But God didn't show you anything, why ?Why doesn't he speak to me ? Why do I need to learn about him(or her as you seem to prefer) through you ? And why did you have to learn about her through someone else ? Why isn't God self evident ?
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Kader keeps bouncing around and never seems to follow any subject or line of thought. He had asked me why I believe the divinity of Jesus to be logical, and I responded. His next response though had nothing to do with that issue but instead wandered off into signs or something. It is tiresome work for an old man to have to prance like a pony. I asked thoses questions to know a bit more.
But that has little to do with the value of the Bible or any other scripture.
No the error that plague the bible have a lot to do with its value. The value of the bible isn't like the value of any book. Because people hold it to be the truth. And that means it deals with reality. So we can't treat it like any fiction book like you seem to do and just accept the "message". We need to verify the allegation of the bible.
I find the story of Jesus life and ministry logical because it is the type of sweeping example and lesson a GOD, one that really did create the Universe might present.
And for that you need to assume that God is more or less a biblical God. And befor you do that, you need to first validate how true can the bible be (accurate).
What more awesome lesson could there be than GOD, instead of simply telling us, became one of us, lived among us, suffering all the little indignities of humanity, having to learn how to control His bowels, to walk, to talk, to stumble, fall, get cut knees and boo-boos. That would be assuming God did all thoses things. And all you have as a "proof", is the bible. No this is far from the best possible lesson he could have given us. Look around you, did we look like we even understood his lesson ? 10000 different branches of christianism, other religions, war... No no, the lesson isnt as awesome as you would like it to be. Appearing to a handfull of people and claiming to be God... All the rest of the post follow the same line of thoughts You base all your assumption on the existance of Jesus and that this story isn't just what it seems to be (a very nice and well written story with a great moral ?) No you take it to the next level when you start believing that actually came to pass. And how can you explain to me that the christianity is logical when you simply assume a bunch of illogical things to start with ?
But God didn't show you anything, why ? Really? Why doesn't he speak to me ? I have no idea. I can see no reason you should learn about GOD through me.
Well I have to learn from someone, I can't find God (as the bible describe him) or even know about jesus if I don't read the bible. I can't get that "knowledge" myself. I need someone to teach me (or give me a bible)
I learn through what others have learned and what I experience. If I may, you learned from other, but that your experience confirm what you've learned from the bible is quite another thing. Your experience might confirm that the message of most religions is logical. (Treat the other like you would like to be treated etc..) But in the whole world, there is no personal experience prove the existance of Jesus for example. If you don't understand, well simply put. If you never heard of Jesus, you will not experience anything concerning Jesus. It has never happened that a missionary went to some indian village to preach Jesus and found an little indian who already found him. You get my point ? If you want to take into account your personal experience (if you still think that what you experienced prove in your eye the existance of Jesus for example) Well then think about all the other followers of other religions who thinks the same exact way as you.
Why isn't God self evident ? For me GOD is self evident. But that is just me. How is God self evident if you need the bible to understand him ?It is self evident to you that there is only 1 God? It is self evident to you that this God is all loving ? Make a point starting from "reality" and not some "story".
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. John 8:12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." He is not speaking of physical light just so you know. He is speaking of truth. But truth has the same dual qualities. Does this make any sense to you? Anything can make sense You know the fable of the hare and the tortoise make SENSE. But does that means anything past that it is a good story ?
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Scottness, damn you type fast.
Okay you didn't quite address my point, or maybe I just didn't understand. My point was how do you determine that the bible isn't just a story.
One of my assumptions is that the original purpose or design, the ”objective reality’, is what we are all seeking. And I want to know why do you make this assumption ? Please don't shower me in pages, lets do this...slowly ? PS : If you accept to use science to explain some things then, you cannot be "picky" on what knowledge you chose to use. You have to accept all of science. Don't you agree ?
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Jar, I like the way you think, and I think you don't understsand my position.
Each time I adressed an issue with belief, my isssue was how can you believe (read know) in A or B. I mean, your the most open minded christian i've ever conversed with.Anyways, I enjoy reading your posts because you seem to be...wise or wiser then most christian and atheist alike. quote: I think you fit more in my definition of agnostic. Anyways, weither you call yourself christian or a defender of the Flying spagetthi monster, I don't care. I think your views of the Bible are not what I encouter in the majority of christian everyday. I think most christian enter the categroy of "I KNOW"While you admit that you know nothing and only believe. I guess then why I find your position illogical is why would someone chose to believe in something he trutfully don't know if it is true or not. I mean I believe in gravityI believe that I am not dreaming all of this But then when it comes to believing in Jesus, I just can't. Because there is too many contradiction. Edited by Kader, : No reason given.
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
The point is, that if you go to some foreign land and find a little Indian who already does what the gospel teaches, the Indian already knows God. And what the indian would be doing ?
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
That's what belief is: a substitute for knowing. When we don't know, we can only believe. I agree, and yet, the belief in any religion is often held as a knowledge. "God exist and you are CRAZY not to see it!!" You know ....that kind of "belief"
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Th Indian would be doing the best he can to be a good person based on the knowledge that he has. I do not believe in jesus, but I can assure you, I am doing my best to be a good person with the knowledge that I have. I try to respect others and to treat them as I would like to be treated. But how come I don't know God ?
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Kader Member (Idle past 3758 days) Posts: 156 Joined: |
Archer Opterix
Most of what you said is right. I just wonder how can we call something truth if it doesn't deal with facts ? Thanks for your input
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